Bully Kutta

Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 7. December 2011, 21:31

The Bully Kutta

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i have created the graphic above to show my views on the origin of the bully kutta. i have tried my best using paint.
for me the starting point of the BK is when the native indian sighthounds melted together with large LGDs from persia. (both of them you can see at the top of the pic.) the ancient large persian mastiffs were LGDs like the sarabi dog. (in phenotype they were pretty much like kangals, maybe even like the aksaray malaks sometimes). in general all LGD types in the middle east are similar dogs, namely ancient "primitive/original" mastiffs.
just look at the various human migrations and influence of civilizations on modern day pakistan. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan. mind you, all these lands have giant LGD type dogs i.e. kangals, sarabis, aksaray Malaks, CAO types....
however i would say the sighthound influence was big enough that the BK was more leaning towards a running mastiff, while the ancient LGD types (the original central asian mastiffs) added power and size. these running mastiffs were propably a type we could call the "prototype bully kutta".
with the british invasion in india later also british blood was added, mainly of butchers´ alaunts and this was when the modern bully kutta arose. these british dogs for sure added determination & gameness. i explained this further on my chart.
i would like to hear your thoughts and opinions too.

well, me personally i neither agree with people who deny that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with the guys who are, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.


bully kutta graphic again: (the reason for the landscape format i explain at the bottom of the page)

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beside that here is an interesting video, what do you think about the facts and especially about conclusions made in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WV1hs7UM9s

http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1326

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9787470/1/
sunnyAK
 
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 3. December 2012, 08:33

now the "breed profile" (it is more a landrace than a breed with all the existing sub-types and crosses)

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Temperament and phenotype

The “Beast from the East”, a title given to the Bully Kutta because of its aggressive nature in dog fights, or let´s say to its pretty good will to continue fighting, especially if you consider that it is a large dog and most large dog breeds are not that much focused on fighting for no reason, or are simply not bred as match-dogs. However the breed is bred for fighting and shaped by this purpose. With proper socialization and appropriate training, the Bully Kutta can make an amenable companion for dog owners. They can be protective, but when it comes to guarding don´t expect too much of them. Many people living in Pakistan say almost anyone can walk up to them, unhook the chain and walk away with them.
Judging by their build, being long legged and not too massive I expect them to be good large game hunters. The Pakistani Bully Kutta is a powerful mastiff-type dog. Long-legged and with a medium wide chest, this breed is agile and quick, capable of great speed and known for its impressive stamina. The head is medium broad with a long muzzle and not typical “mastiff-like”.

To answer a few questions from my point of view, that have been asked here on another board: (It is a bit like frequently asked questions.)
populator135 wrote: Do any of you dog "experts" out there believe that this breed is the most formidable domestic canine of them all ?


No, I don´t think it is the most fomidable animal. However we first would have to define the word "most fomidable". There is no "most formidable" breed for me anyway, it often is more the individual and the breeding as well as the line.
For me a dog breed or a type had to to be way more versatile than a Bully Kutta to deserve a title like "most formidable".


A Bully Gull Terr for example, also known as Gull Dong, is a much better guard dog and serves more purposes unlike the majority of the Bully Kuttas. As mentioned before when it comes to guarding don´t expect them to be dismissive towards people and make good guard dogs. The breeding goal has never been a versatile one. Bully Gull Terrs can match Bully Kuttas and have defeated them in the past, so they can match them in their own game, while being pretty good guard dogs too, so all in all it makes them more versatile dogs.
I personally don´t think Bully Kuttas can be seen as a “pure, unchanged eastern breed” as when it comes to dog fighting, people in general use what works.
You also see a difference between fighting Bully Kuttas of the past and the present, while many describe the older fighting dogs as being boring in their style and looking more like dogs in a contest of stamina and wrestling, new Bully Kuttas have popped up with more bull & terr influence and a modified fighting style.

Mosquiller wrote:BKs are overrated.
tall, narrow, hound-shaped head and body. can't be the best fighter.
(I'm against dog fighting btw).


You have made a good point mate. It obviously is a difference if you evenly match dogs or have a dog that has to inflict big damage against a wild predator even in the first minutes. One dog might be good for dog vs dog combat again talking about evenly matched dogs and the other dog for fighting wild predators and there are breeds, crosses and types that could shine in both combat and a not “staged” scenario. By the way, in the latter (fighting wild predators and being able to make very good match dogs) often crosses excel. Bully Kuttas are good on the long run, due to their stretched build and not having too much mass, on the other side they are not the dogs that dog much damage on average and their heads are not built for such a high bite force as many western mastiff-type dogs or some LGDs. The contests are more based on which dog lasts longer in terms of stamina and will to keep on fighting.

The Bully Kuttas on Kashmir side are bigger, due to having more Gaddi Kutta influence, the latter is another local LGD type. This results in thicker skin and thicker coats (a bit more fur). Due to the LGD influence these dogs have bigger heads and sometimes larger teeth and are able to make more damage than "normal" Bully Kuttas. The usual Bully Kutta has indeed a "houndish" head shape and has more the phenotype like Mosquiller decribes it and without any doubt they have sighthound influence.

One more thing to all readers, don´t confuse Gull Terrs with Bully Gull Terrs aka Gull Dongs, as Bully Gull Terrs are a mix of Gull Terrs with Bully Kuttas, with more Gull Terr blood in most cases. Gull Terrs are based on the EBTs (English Bullterriers) that have been brought to the Indian sub-continent.

Bully Kuttas are more often than not, able to defeat Afghani Sage Koochee, the LGD from Afghanistan, due to Bully Kuttas having the advantage of longer hind legs with better/more angulation and also due to being more willed. (Their mindset is better for combat.) Sage Koochees are often open-hocked and lack angulation, so the Sage Koochee cannot be seen as a proper representative of all types of LGDs and for sure also not of all types of mastiff-type dogs, no matter if western-mastiff type dog, or eastern mastiff-type dog. (A proper German Mastiff for example has pretty good hind legs for wrestling.)
Here a picture to show some differences:
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy28 ... lation.png
Accidentally I have seen some Sage Koochees in mixed tournaments with Bully Kuttas, as the internet is sadly full of such stuff and the Sage Koochees were more like the dog in the middle, which is not good for having a solid grip to the ground, while standing on the hind legs. Standing on their hind legs they had problems against the BKs and fell to the ground much to easily. Just like you see it in the graphic above, looking at the dog in the middle. The distance between the feet is too close, combined with a lack of angulation.

Some more history and controversy:
This legendary Pakistani/Indian fighting dog (although we have to say that the Pakistani dogs are the better bred fighters) is thought by some of its fanciers to have remained pure and unchanged since ancient times, while others question its true origin and background. Although there is some evidence that the Pakistani Bully Kutta was developed from the Sage Koochee and there are lines with Gaddi influence another native LGD type, old Persian Alaunts, Afghani Gawi Bulldogs, Indian Mastiffs, Assyrian Mastiffs and dogs introduced by Alexander the Great, who in opposite to many peoples knowledge also brought dogs to the Indian sub-continent (although most people only know the story that he brought TM-like dogs back to his country, but he died on his way back) and many other types that people bring into play, quite a few authorities believe it is a result of crossing local hunting dogs, especially sighthounds with German Mastiffs, German Pointers, English Mastiffs and Bulldog types, as well as other western breeds brought to the region by the British soldiers in the 1700's.
It is a know fact, that the same type of English Bull Terriers that have been brought to Argentina, have been brought to India too and Pakistan used to be an Indian province.
I personally don´t believe the “ancient pure Pakistani breed story”, but I also don´t think they are just German Mastiff crosses. However if you cross certain sighthound types to Mastiffs, no matter where they are from, you will get similar dogs in phenotype as German Mastiffs.

Interbreeding between both of these types mentioned a few lines before, was common and while a small number of “true Bully Kutta bloodlines” howsoever you define “true” have supposedly been preserved, much of the breed's gene pool has been corrupted.
But let´s face the facts that I have mentioned earlier. Fighting dogs that are still fought nowadays have been improved by crossing any dog into the breed that worked and helped to get the desired result, a good match-dog, so this is how I see the Bully Kutta. I neither see it as a British result or some German Mastiff crosses, but for sure also not as ancient and unchanged Pakistani breed. Some say even the name of the breed was indicative of the influence foreigners had on the region, translating simply to "Bully Dog", but here I have to disagree, as Bully Kutta does not mean „Bully type dog“, like it can be read on MolosserDogs, but wrinkled dog! “The word Bully actually derives from the languages of Sindhi and Hindi-Urdu as bohli — meaning heavily wrinkled. “
The explanations offered by the breed fanciers for the apparent non-existence of the pre-colonial name for the controversial Pakistani Mastiff range from suggesting that the Bully Kutta is the continuation of the original Persian Alaunt to it actually being the same thing as the thought to be the extinct Gawii, but further research is required to establish whether these claims are valid or simple wishful thinking.

Regardless of the true ancestry of the breed, the Bully Kutta's popularity in its homeland remains reasonably strong, mostly due to much of the country's acceptance of dog-fighting tournaments as a way of life, although it should be noted that the practice of outcrossing hadn't been fully abandoned in some parts of Pakistan even after the British left the region, with many other breeds having been created using both the original Bully Kutta and its descendants over the years. Some of these newer Mastiff types are the Kohati Bulldogge, Nagi Bulldogge, Sargodha Bulldogge, Kanda Bulldogge and the Pakistani Boarhound. Nowadays, all of these breeds are being incorrectly classified as one and the same, especially in the West, where the Bully Kutta is slowly becoming popular. In recent years, these dogs have been assigned the misleading "Central-Asian Mastiff" name, which conveniently does away with individual categorization of actual breeds and varieties found in the region, allowing the breeders of such animals to promote their stock in the West under a new exotic label, without having to worry about the actual ancestry of the dogs they import, breed and sell.
One more thought of mine, beside that we have to say that no dog like the Bully Kutta can be found in the surrounding countries of India and Pakistan, including countries that belonged to former Assyria and this is definitely a valid doubt that the dogs are the dogs that used to be know as Assyrian Mastiffs or the dogs know as “Babylonian dogs”. Beside that some of the mural reliefs in Ninive even resemble way more a St. Bernard than a Bully Kutta in my opinion.
Image
Some fanciers in its home country claim that the best examples of “pure” Bully Kuttas were never sold to foreigners or even expatriates visiting Pakistan, inferior dogs were readily available for export, with some authorities pointing out that the majority of Western-bred bloodlines aren't pure, having been crossed with various European dogs to soften the temperament and increase population. I agree to the latter, but I guess to countries like South Korea, where different fighting dogs are tested, they won´t sell inferior dogs. Fortunately, the true pure Bully Kutta, whatever that is, as I don´t regard “true pure” as a dog of pre British colonial times, can still be found in some areas of Pakistan, where it is regarded by many as a national treasure. Sad but true this breed is still used today for what it was created centuries ago, which is the ever popular "sport" of dog-fighting and bear-baiting, especially the latter is the biggest crime, as the bears are chained, have no claws and no teeth. For the terrible "event" of bear biting, Gull Terrs and Bully Gull Terrs are usually preferred.
I think a meaningful and useful alternative to dog on dog combat would be large game hunting for the breed, maybe even in a combination between a male and female dog.

The average size is 32cm while a few very tall dogs exist, with almost the size of German Mastiffs or Irish Wolfhounds.

sunnyAK

http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:44

A collection on opinions converning the Bully Kutta´s ancestry:

User1 wrote:As some of you may know, suliman and I don't agree on the origins of the bully kutta. To put it mildly :lol:
Suliman believes the bully kutta is a direct descendent of ancient fighting mastiffs from ancient civilisations in the indus valley region (or something along those lines, correct me if I'm wrong), while I believe they're clearly descendents of western big-game hunting dogs brought to the sub-continent by the british.

When I proposed seizer origins to suliman, he had a few rather weak arguments against that idea. I intend to point out the mistakes in his arguments, and also illustrate how blatantly similar western hunting mastiffs were to bully kuttas in appearance around the time that the british went to india.
Using images borrowed from the book "the mastiffs- the big game hunters", which suliman has probably seen, but conveniently ignored.

First what does the book say about seizers-
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Yes, that makes sense, "seizers" being comprised of the european "gripping" dogs, mastiffs and bullbreeds, and the name "seizer" being a reference for their tendency to "seize" steadfast onto the quarry.
Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.

Here is a picture showing two hunting dogs typically used by the british in india, one of the rough coated sighthound variety, and the other of the shortcoated seizer variety.
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Gee, is it just me or does that seizer look a fuckload like a bully kutta? I mean I couldn't draw a BK that accurately, and I consider myself an artist.

Some other artworks depicting seizers-
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Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude?" (I'm paraphrasing), but let's look at what passed for a bloodhound in the 1800s?
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Look familiar? Like, I don't know, maybe EXACTLY like BKs?
"Bloodhounds" were often mastiff/bull crosses, with a splash of st hubert hound for scenting ability.

While we're at it, let's take a look at the british/european hunting mastiffs from around that time-
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Shit even the bulldogs looked like stocky BKs-
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Suliman says I talk too much so maybe I should just leave it there and let the pictures speak for themselves. Blatant BK looking dogs were taken by the british to india for hunting big game (specifically subdueing and fighting the quarry, hence seizers), they kicked around in the dirt for a while fighting stuff and then around 2001 some idiot on the internet started calling them Bully Kuttas. That's the history of the BK.


http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:49

User1 wrote:
User2 wrote:
User3 wrote:There are plenty of pictures of Euro typ mastiffs that look identical to BK yet no pics or drawings from the Indo/paki region from this time, why?


Not so artistic folks ?

Haha, well the thing is they were pretty artistic back 7000-5000 years ago when the area did actually have large dogs. After that I guess they just had an artist's mental block? Got stage fright?

Also why didn't the british notice big mastiff dogs when they got there? I've read a few different accounts by the british commenting on the local dogs and they often seem to suggest the biggest dog that was there was the tazi, which is known to have been imported from the middle east anyway earlier by an indian king, and was at best a skinnier version of the greyhound.
There's just no evidence I've seen of there being big mastiff dogs in that area in the last many thousands of years.

It's known that in the 1300s to the 1500s european mastiffs were traded along the silk routes to kings and barons in mongolia and japan for hunting and fighting purposes, which means they actually had to go transport these european mastiffs through india to get them to their destination. Didn't they stop along the way and say "wtf, there's one just there, we went all that way for nothing".
I even feel like I've heard about indian royalty importing european hunting mastiffs as well around the same time, but I'll have to check on that.

The dogs were short lived in japan and china it seems, probably lived and died with the emperors and kings or whatever that imported them.
Later japan had to get mastiffs and bullbreeds yet again from britain to create the tosa.
Everywhere you go you know the people obtained their gripping mastiff and bullbreed types from western europe- eastern europe, russia, asia, south america, north america, australia, south africa are all known to have gotten gripping dogs from western europe because that's where they came from, then only in pakistan it's like "oh no, we've had this secret stash the whole time".

That makes me like "really? What do you do with these gripping mastiffs, how did they develop, what did you need them for? Have you worked cattle with them, swine?"
"aahh, they sometimes fight each other on the dusty street"
*a suspicious look*
"it gets pretty hot, but they still fight ...anyway ... *looks at feet ashamed*"
"these aren't your dogs at all are they? you don't even know how to use them"
"*sheepish look*"


http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:57

OK, let´s keep the real user names within the quotes this time, they are from sunnyak.forenworld.at/index.php , the long-lasting partner-board to this encylcopedia anyway.

suliman wrote:
Gun wrote:The truth is suliman acts like a dick to me, and I act like a bit of a dick back, but I definitely hold back more than I say and try to keep it focussed on the dogs, unlike him.


Hello, did you miss me? Too bad I am back to ruin your Estrogen High, thinking you’ve won:lol:

I am so heartbroken, I was having very big hopes for my worst fears!

First of all my heartiest congratulations goes to GUN, for the first time in History coming up with some pictures. A Big Hurray to the Shit quality uploads of pics taken from a Cellphone, dude if you don't have a scanner or don't even have acces to one, want me to donate you a nice Scanner? at least you could Scan the pictures properly and put on better quality pics! rather than using a Cellphone Cam which also seem's shit quality by the way :D

Well well looks like you like dicks too much, what do they say about you'r kind. They’re all bloody pufters! You lead the pack marching in Sydney at the annual parade -Mardi Gras festival.

I guess you have a very short lived memory. let me remind you

Suliman wrote: I publically and solemnly would like to offer apologies if knowingly or unknowingly you felt even the slightest of rudeness towards you, your country or breeds! I’d Expect the same level of Respect in Return!!!

I’d like be the first to take the honors of bringing forth a Friendship Hand to you and let’s enjoy this great opportunity to learn from each other about the Breeds of their Nation.


After all the Respect rituals, you took so anally me asking on Sunny's statement that my questions were still unanswered. Does not bother me at all we know you love dicks especially up the a**

Gun wrote: You should be relieved I dropped the seizer issue, because your attempts to squirm out of that one were weak as hell.

You wanna talk about seizers? Let's talk about seizers.
I'll start a thread on the obvious seizer/bully kutta connection today.

Maids, seizers/bully kuttas... guess colonialism wasn't all bad?




Gun wrote:Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.


Not only you'r ass is arrogant but you also posses the quality of Lying and that too right on the face.

Where did Samuel White Baker came into Discussion from, dropping out of the Sky? I guess Hypocrisy limits your short memory

Gun wrote: There was also the seizer. What do you make of it? A big game hunting(and part time security) bandog used extensively in india and what was then ceylon by the british. It's written about in big game hunting accounts of the time,most notably by Sir Samuel White Baker. A cross between mastiffs, bullterriers and german and english hounds (I would guess everything from foxhounds, bloodhounds, boarhounds aka danes, and sighthounds).


Perphaps you'r ego was hurt bad when I slapped back the Statements from Samuel White Baker. You call my arguments weak, We are not talking about your erection here :lol:

I have said it before and unlike you I stand for what I say. Samuel White Baker Created the Seizer, just like Swinford Created the Bandog, like Katrina Hartwell creates Bandogs.

Gun wrote:Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka


Honestly you call yourself a hunter, shame on you!! Did Samuel White Baker came into your dream and told you he only hunted in Srilanka??

He has been to India many times in 1885 and 1887-1889 pursuing tigers and blackbuck. Or perphaps you presume that he was a lier and a hypocrite like your self! This makes me have real doubts on you. The Four ForeFathers of Big Game Hunting are William Cotton Oswell, Henry Astbury Leveson, Sir Samuel White Baker and Roualeyn George Gordon Cumming. Sir Samuel White Baker only one amongst them to be Knighted by the Queen. But who do you care to listen, you’re a Knight in your own right, being Knighted at Mardi Gras for the special skill of Dwindling your thang :lol:

You think just by putting up a write-up on Seizures from the Book is enough, what’s the link to the Bully Kutta Dah?

Let me up put up original Manuscript from Rifle and the Hound in Ceylon.

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Gun wrote:Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude


Are you that Dumb? Do you want me to slap your face now or you would like to do the honor’s yourself. Carefully read with open eyes above what Sir Samuel White Baker wrote. Like the Bandog was a gamekeeper’s mongrel specializing at Man Grabbing/Seizing. The Seizure was a mongrel specialized at seizing big game. A Neo/American Bulldog is called a Bandog and so is a Dogue De Bordeaux/Pit, since they are types not breeds.



About your pictures, I am 100% sure that you have Hyperopia! Go get your eyes checked.

LMAO the picture below is titled by GUN as BK Hunting. Perhaps the encircled Ceylon (Srilanka) escaped your notice, BK's in Srilanka haha. Also that the dogs have pointy muzzles, ears thrown back and folded, some lurcher type in the background. Just like your knowledge of Hunting History, your knowledge of dog anatomy is jack shit. Showing dogs of different type Short muzzles, Bloodhounds, then English Mastiffs, Bandogs, Bulldogs and everything is comparable to BK. This is what you call Desperate.

Image

About your Seizer picture, What’s the hype about it ain’t no special thing that existed have gone away. Showing Seizers of 27 and 28 inches who are 40 kg + range and comparing them to BK, you can’t be stupider than this.

Below is a comparison of the Seizer with the Australian Bandog. Similar weight and hight range, similar breeding both being mogrels and similar Anatomy.

If you see the Australian Bandog similar to Bully Kutta, well with Hyperopia Disability income won’t be a bad idea.

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Gun wrote: You're not getting it. NONE of the dogs in india are purebreeds. Not one.


Forget the Bully Kutta thingi None of the dog breeds in India is a Pure bred :lol:

Below are some bits from Sir Samuel White Baker’s Wild Beasts and their ways. Mr. Baker describes about a large breed kept by the Banjara’s. He is referring to the Banjara Mastiff. Why didn’t he mentions of the Banjara as a cross of Bullterrier to hound or anything similar or more over any blood being brought over from the West influencing the creation of the breed. The Banjara’s have Indian Mastiff/BK blood in its vein’s. The two dogs he got were mix bred with a local dog and the Banjara and described as excellent quality.

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Go get yourself educated before talking dogs, at least you’d know wtf your talking about. Samuel White Baker only hunted in Srilanka my ass and yeah please don’t waste our time by replying with your trademark So What!
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:02

User1 wrote:I was paraphrasing you saying samuel white baker only hunted in ceylon, you said something to that affect that he was the one who talked about seizers and never set foot in pakistan. I know full well the reality is seizers were prevalent across pakistan, india, bangladesh and sri lanka and indeed were still back over in europe as well. Similar dogs were also taken to africa.
I also know samuel white baker travelled the world hunting big game.
Maybe I misquoted you, I apologise, so we agree then that seizers were all over the place?

There's nothing to say these mongrels dogs aren't still kicking around in sri lanka and india, it's just that no deluded lunatic has declared them some ancient mythological breed yet. Conversely they may have died out in those countries, while finding continued employment in these dog fighting and bear baiting cultures of pakistan. Nothing perplexing about that.

Showing that some looked like scottish deerhounds and some were smaller than bully kuttas and etc is neither here nor there. They had varied mongrel hunting dogs just as you have today in australia. Some looked like BKs, and that bk type has been favoured with the fighting dogs in pakistan that descend from these european mongrel hunting dogs.

I named the pictures "Bullykuttashunting" and "obviousbullykutta" and etc to amuse myself at your expense, lol.
Glad you noticed it and got your little loin cloth in a twist. :lol:

Is that it btw?

Edit- oh and yeah the camera on my phone is shitty. I haven't dusted off my actual camera or charged it's battery for a long time so I just used my phone, figured it was clear enough to get the point.
Yep, good point about the camera???
And the gay mardi gras?
Grasping at straws much? Typical of a desperate beaten man.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:09

suliman wrote:
WORKMAN wrote:How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?


Hello,

Well you just asked the question that I asked Gun in a different Way. See below the entire British empire.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab18 ... _1920s.png

As you can clearly see the British Indian Empire included the Entire of Pakistan, India, Srilanka and Bangladesh. I have provided specific evidence in the other topic of Mastiff Type Dog presence in the Indus Valley of Pakistan. It has been found in Literature, Engraving, terracotta Figurines and excavations of remains of Mastiff type from these sites. Below is a Map of Pakistan marked with region where the Bully Kutta Still exits along the Indus River.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/ab18 ... Valley.jpg

If indeed the Western Mastiff did develop the Bully Kutta. Why don’t you have any Large short Hair Mastiff type dog from Bangladesh, Srilanka and most of India??? (Apart from Indian Punjab and some Neighboring States, During British time nearly all of the Big game and the Tiger country in British India was further west expanding up to areas bordering modern day Nepal and Bangladesh and in Srilanka. That’s where they had these seizer type dogs, Majority of the Big Game trophy Hunters never even stepped their foot on the modern day Pakistan then why don’t we find large Bully Kutta type dogs their???


well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion this map is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.
Image

i also still wonder why so many pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense!
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:48

the internet is full of stuff about BKs, including different claims about the size and weight of a true BK.
it can be read that true BKs are sometimes or even frequently 90kg and more than 90cm in size. other people say that these are made up stories and that huge BKs are not true bullies, but western Mastiff crosses, including German Mastiffs etc.
any opinions about it :?:

here indeed a huge Bully Kutta from pakistan.
Image
if we compare it to this two dogs, you can see it is very different in build. it looks like two different breeds.
Image
here another bully which is similar in type like the second one.
Image

in my opinion the difference between the first and the other two dogs, is more than just, two different types of BKs!


shah wrote:Well there is NO such thing as indian sindh or indian bully kutta i think this puneeth have on purpose misled u by not telling the truth behind these socalled indian bullys.

Upto this day i havent seen ONE single pure bk from india which was not imported from pakistan.

pic nr 1 is jogie whos bred and owned by MR KHAN QAYUM the most famous bk man in pakistan.

pic no 2 is a dog called michael who was imported to india from pakistan.

Micheal have mopped the floor whit any competition he met in india (mostly guldongs) at the age of 10 he still is undefeated champ and is regarded as a legend and best fighter of india.today many many dogs is offsprings of michael mostly crossed whit local bull terrs or pitbulls.

pic no 3 also have roots in pakistan but was imported to india. the guy holding him is the fraud who calls himself as the goodfAther of bullys.LOL :D LOL
Image
same dog is in pic no 3 only here whit his real owner.


i cud go on and on and show u many more dogs in india whos imported direct from pakistan but ill let it be for now.

here is little info rwitten by a indian guy about the sindh dog it will tell u where the purest and best preserved bullys is found today.
Image
8)


sunnyAK wrote:shah, your post makes no sense at all. in 1900, the name pakistan didn't even exist. the land was part of India, which was a collection of british provinces under the direct sovereignty of the british crown, along with small states ruled by indian princes under british hegemony. when india obtained its independence on 1947-08-15, the area hitherto known as india was divided into two countries along religious lines. if there should be some kind of "ancient unchanged Bully Kutta" -something i don´t believe in :arrow: i mentioned earlier:"It is highly unlikely that it is an ancient unchanged breed. that's just not my idea of dogs. we don't have "pure, ancient & unchanged dogs" existing in some kind of "parallel universe" for 1000 years or even more.", it was no pakistani breed at all, but a native breed of the indian subcontinent. again, i don´t believe that there are pure unchanged breeds up til now, but to say bully kuttas were a pure pakistani breed and indian had no pure BKs, when pakistan as independent country didn´t even exist is grotesque. it is just a national pride thing. :roll:
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 04:11

suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.

Lets talk the History first. There have been two school of thoughts about the History of Bk's. One part thinks that the Bk was developed during the British Rule in the Subcontinent, developed from crossing of English dogs like Great Dane and Mastiffs. The other people are content with the Idea that its very ancient breed and going further more to the theories that western Mastiff's were created by dogs taken from this region by Alexander.

To me both are extreme's! Geographically near to the Bk region there has been presence of Mastiff Blood since ancient times but Wolf Type LGD Blood of Tibetan's, Caucassian's and Sage Kooche's etc. With BK being the Only short hair Mastiff in the region.

There is no denying the fact that in ancient literature Large Dogs from the Indian Subcontinent can be found. For instance

1) "Animals grow biggest in india ,from india comes the dog that are larger than all others."( Naturalis Historia by Pliny the elder 77CE)

2) "The Indian dogs are very large and even attack lions"( Ctesias,400BC)
[please note the author is mentioning the bravery of dogs by mentioning they attack not to be misinterpreted to conclude that they Kill!

3) Aristotle writes in his Book History of animalia 350 BC "They say that the Indian dog is a cross between the tiger and the bitch, not the first cross, but a cross in the third generation; for they say that the first cross is a savage creature. They take the bitch to a lonely spot and tie her up: if the tiger be in an amorous mood he will pair with her; if not he will eat her up, and this casualty is of frequent occurrence"
[Please note here that Aristotle is stressing on They say meaning that a famous fable of his time, please don't misinterpret this to think he confirmed this]

4) We can find mention in Religious Scriptures like Ramayana approximately 900 years BC .
Image
Bharat the Brother of the God Rama was leaving for Ayodha which was an ancient city of India, which is now in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh and was given such dogs by his maternal uncle the Kekeya king. The Kekeyan kingdom was the Western kingdom which is quite close the modern day region of the BK.



suliman wrote:Ok now lets talk about the idea of the BK originating from the Western Mastiff stock, The BK is a Dry Mouth short coat Mastiff, unlike Majority of Western Mastiff that have a more dome type Skull and are heavy drooler's. Here is a list of dogs breed famous for drooling excessively.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/drool.htm

Dog's like the Great Dane, Mastiff, Neo, Dogue De Bordeux are very exotic even today
! Even to this day a common Village Breeder would not be able to find these Western dogs for Mating even he wants to and keep in mind 90% of the BK is kept in rural village areas of Pakistan. Our society has always been separated into casts, sects, Financial Statuses etc without any intermingleness amongst individuals of different groups. During the British Raj The Mastiffs, Danes etc were owned only by Royalty. Which the common man didn’t have any access to breed with.

However Let’s look at this more logically, The British ruled here for 90 years. If we take average age of a dog 9 years we would have 10 generations but realistically breeders can go into 10th gen in 12 to 20 years, breeding quickly at when dogs are 2 years Old.

So let’s just consider we are in the 20th generation of BK now from that time. This makes the transition period from one gen to another 4.5 yrs and 4 years is a prime age, peak time for breeding when breeders do breed here.

Now if we take a Bully go back up to 20 generations there would be 2097168 ancestors dogs in total (This is an estimated figure sometimes dogs do get repeated in the Pedigree, Majority of the breeding here is outcrossing. So for the calculation we are assuming all dogs were different). 1048576 males and 1048576 females. Now in order for the genes to considered for the English Blood the minimum amount should be 10% i.e at least 10% of the ancestors should be English dogs. 10% of the total 2097168 dogs would be 209716.8 dogs, Now again we also need to take into consideration the fact that every time we don’t need to cross a new dog, so some dogs can be bred 3 to 4 times in ancestry. So let’s say all the English dogs were bred four times in the ancestry so we divide 209716.8 with 4 = 52429.2 meaning a population of Fifty two thousand four hundred and twenty nine English Dogs in a span of 90 years.

The Kennel Club of Pakistan started registry in 1947, as soon as it got its affiliation with the Kennel Club (England). I got the Data for all the registered Western Mastiff type dogs from the Kennel Club of Pakistan dating from 1947 till Now. I was told in a letter from the President of the Kennel Club of Pakistan Mr.K.M Roy that not many people have these breeds and following is the total number of dogs
registered.

1. English Mastiff .............42
2. Neopolitan Mastiff ........31
3. French Mastiff..............12
4. Great Dane .................39

Now further lets look at it from a breeders perspective, let’s say the person gets hold of an English dog and breeds him with a local female. The first generation is 50/50 percent, the second would be 75% local, 25% English . By the time of the third generation the English Dog would be on the verge of being bred out of the line. If some percent of English Dogs were added with this type of breeding by the 20th gen there would not be any traces of them. Even with good pit lines breeders find them bred out and have to outcross a different line at times. See below this type of breeding
Image
ow the BK to be developed from the English dogs, English dogs have to be introduced in several gens according to systematic breeding, which I find impossible to believe that locals either had the resources or the brains to have this carried out. Now one can argument instead of the locals the English did it, Ok then why there is no mention of it any where? English are pride taking people if they do something they take credit for it, where is any journal, any record, any statement, any writings that supports this. People say show us any written document in the last 2010 years about the breed, then we believe. I say show me anything authentic document from the time proving systematic breeding. So where did this English dogs theory come from and how can it be proved! Below is a plan of this type of systematic breeding.
Image


suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time.


WORKMAN wrote:ah those were the days when shah could make up bullshit romantic stories and outright lies to "stupid westerners" the name he so bestowingly called them. Then as more info started to come about and the things shah would rather have left in dark came to light as they always do shah's credibility and his username drifted into obscurity. With the exception of him attempting to send people computer viruses (cyber terrorism) he seemed to disappear. Until now after oozing from underneath his rock back into the public eye. What an honor to have such an honest upright member here.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby the celt on 25. December 2012, 00:08

bully kutta is a mixed breed, before that in india the dogs where of sighthound build, if we all believe the great shah, then why where these dogs not brought back by europeans, also he puts down the indian dogs saying pakistan dogs are better, but lets remember pakistan only was born in late 1940s
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 25. December 2012, 18:02

the celt wrote:bully kutta is a mixed breed, before that in india the dogs where of sighthound build, if we all believe the great shah, then why where these dogs not brought back by europeans, also he puts down the indian dogs saying pakistan dogs are better, but lets remember pakistan only was born in late 1940s


yeah, that was what i answered him already. for me the BK is an "alaunt veantre", just like the German Mastiff and with that said a mix of sighthounds and mastiff/bulldog types. the bulldog types were definitely brought from britain and were melted in to one type of dog they now call Bully Kutta.

just take a look at the type of dogs that were the foundation for the German Mastiff aka Great Dane:
Image
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby the celt on 30. December 2012, 01:56

IamTitanium wrote:
suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.

Lets talk the History first. There have been two school of thoughts about the History of Bk's. One part thinks that the Bk was developed during the British Rule in the Subcontinent, developed from crossing of English dogs like Great Dane and Mastiffs. The other people are content with the Idea that its very ancient breed and going further more to the theories that western Mastiff's were created by dogs taken from this region by Alexander.

To me both are extreme's! Geographically near to the Bk region there has been presence of Mastiff Blood since ancient times but Wolf Type LGD Blood of Tibetan's, Caucassian's and Sage Kooche's etc. With BK being the Only short hair Mastiff in the region.

There is no denying the fact that in ancient literature Large Dogs from the Indian Subcontinent can be found. For instance

1) "Animals grow biggest in india ,from india comes the dog that are larger than all others."( Naturalis Historia by Pliny the elder 77CE) african elephant lion rhino, hyenaare bigger

2) "The Indian dogs are very large and even attack lions"( Ctesias,400BC)
[please note the author is mentioning the bravery of dogs by mentioning they attack not to be misinterpreted to conclude that they Kill!

3) Aristotle writes in his Book History of animalia 350 BC "They say that the Indian dog is a cross between the tiger and the bitch, not the first cross, but a cross in the third generation; for they say that the first cross is a savage creature. They take the bitch to a lonely spot and tie her up: if the tiger be in an amorous mood he will pair with her; if not he will eat her up, and this casualty is of frequent occurrence"
[Please note here that Aristotle is stressing on They say meaning that a famous fable of his time, please don't misinterpret this to think he confirmed this]

4) We can find mention in Religious Scriptures like Ramayana approximately 900 years BC .
Image
Bharat the Brother of the God Rama was leaving for Ayodha which was an ancient city of India, which is now in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh and was given such dogs by his maternal uncle the Kekeya king. The Kekeyan kingdom was the Western kingdom which is quite close the modern day region of the BK.



suliman wrote:Ok now lets talk about the idea of the BK originating from the Western Mastiff stock, The BK is a Dry Mouth short coat Mastiff, unlike Majority of Western Mastiff that have a more dome type Skull and are heavy drooler's. Here is a list of dogs breed famous for drooling excessively.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/drool.htm

Dog's like the Great Dane, Mastiff, Neo, Dogue De Bordeux are very exotic even today
! Even to this day a common Village Breeder would not be able to find these Western dogs for Mating even he wants to and keep in mind 90% of the BK is kept in rural village areas of Pakistan. Our society has always been separated into casts, sects, Financial Statuses etc without any intermingleness amongst individuals of different groups. During the British Raj The Mastiffs, Danes etc were owned only by Royalty. Which the common man didn’t have any access to breed with.

However Let’s look at this more logically, The British ruled here for 90 years. If we take average age of a dog 9 years we would have 10 generations but realistically breeders can go into 10th gen in 12 to 20 years, breeding quickly at when dogs are 2 years Old.

So let’s just consider we are in the 20th generation of BK now from that time. This makes the transition period from one gen to another 4.5 yrs and 4 years is a prime age, peak time for breeding when breeders do breed here.

Now if we take a Bully go back up to 20 generations there would be 2097168 ancestors dogs in total (This is an estimated figure sometimes dogs do get repeated in the Pedigree, Majority of the breeding here is outcrossing. So for the calculation we are assuming all dogs were different). 1048576 males and 1048576 females. Now in order for the genes to considered for the English Blood the minimum amount should be 10% i.e at least 10% of the ancestors should be English dogs. 10% of the total 2097168 dogs would be 209716.8 dogs, Now again we also need to take into consideration the fact that every time we don’t need to cross a new dog, so some dogs can be bred 3 to 4 times in ancestry. So let’s say all the English dogs were bred four times in the ancestry so we divide 209716.8 with 4 = 52429.2 meaning a population of Fifty two thousand four hundred and twenty nine English Dogs in a span of 90 years.

The Kennel Club of Pakistan started registry in 1947, as soon as it got its affiliation with the Kennel Club (England). I got the Data for all the registered Western Mastiff type dogs from the Kennel Club of Pakistan dating from 1947 till Now. I was told in a letter from the President of the Kennel Club of Pakistan Mr.K.M Roy that not many people have these breeds and following is the total number of dogs
registered.

1. English Mastiff .............42
2. Neopolitan Mastiff ........31
3. French Mastiff..............12
4. Great Dane .................39

Now further lets look at it from a breeders perspective, let’s say the person gets hold of an English dog and breeds him with a local female. The first generation is 50/50 percent, the second would be 75% local, 25% English . By the time of the third generation the English Dog would be on the verge of being bred out of the line. If some percent of English Dogs were added with this type of breeding by the 20th gen there would not be any traces of them. Even with good pit lines breeders find them bred out and have to outcross a different line at times. See below this type of breeding
Image
ow the BK to be developed from the English dogs, English dogs have to be introduced in several gens according to systematic breeding, which I find impossible to believe that locals either had the resources or the brains to have this carried out. Now one can argument instead of the locals the English did it, Ok then why there is no mention of it any where? English are pride taking people if they do something they take credit for it, where is any journal, any record, any statement, any writings that supports this. People say show us any written document in the last 2010 years about the breed, then we believe. I say show me anything authentic document from the time proving systematic breeding. So where did this English dogs theory come from and how can it be proved! Below is a plan of this type of systematic breeding.
Image


suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time.


WORKMAN wrote:ah those were the days when shah could make up bullshit romantic stories and outright lies to "stupid westerners" the name he so bestowingly called them. Then as more info started to come about and the things shah would rather have left in dark came to light as they always do shah's credibility and his username drifted into obscurity. With the exception of him attempting to send people computer viruses (cyber terrorism) he seemed to disappear. Until now after oozing from underneath his rock back into the public eye. What an honor to have such an honest upright member here.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby the celt on 30. December 2012, 02:01

suliman seems forget elephants lions rhino hyena are bigger in africa, also where does the british say the native dog is better, or they not ship them home
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 3. January 2013, 01:52

the celt wrote:suliman seems forget elephants lions rhino hyena are bigger in africa, also where does the british say the native dog is better, or they not ship them home


i also find that nothing of this proves anything. DNA tests could prove the question people are discussing for years, so all the very long writing would not be needed.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby freed on 14. May 2013, 00:08

I like the updated breed profile with the collection of posts about the Bully Kuttas origin. I still can find no single good point why the Bully Kutta should be free of any foreign influence and i wonder how biased one has to be to believe this.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 14. May 2013, 04:19

freed wrote:I like the updated breed profile with the collection of posts about the Bully Kuttas origin. I still can find no single good point why the Bully Kutta should be free of any foreign influence and i wonder how biased one has to be to believe this.


that´s exactly the point. we just have to look at the migration of people and the incursions into the territory that now is known as pakistan.
in my opinion the ancient mastiff types can be found in persia and caucasus.

p.s. i have updated the graphic too and added a better picture of a persian sarabi dog. (by the way i have also added it as landscape format for google pics. as far as i know it is better this way for the bot)
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby freed on 17. May 2013, 14:46

How exactly was the relation between ancient persian and india/sindh? I am not sure when Persians came to India.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 17. May 2013, 20:23

freed wrote:How exactly was the relation between ancient persian and india/sindh? I am not sure when Persians came to India.


I have some links concerning this question and will post them later. However I will ask Heather to make a statement here, as she is really the best source! For me she is the migration expert per se and she knows perfectly how to use this knowledge in combination with her dog knowledge.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby freed on 22. May 2013, 02:09

OK, then I will wait for her patiently. :)
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby freed on 22. May 2013, 02:10

By the way I love the type of the Bully Kutta in your graphic. 8-)
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 22. May 2013, 20:03

freed wrote:By the way I love the type of the Bully Kutta in your graphic. 8-)


it is moti 203 my favourite bully kutta.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 22. May 2013, 20:04

i thought we could discuss the realtion of different breeds with the alaunt and i want to start with the bully kutta first. i would say the bully kutta has alaunt blood from two sides. most people will at first think of british dogs, but knowing where the alans, or let´s say their ancestors, came from, it makes more sense to start with ancient persia. we know that the alans were located in the caucasus and from there migrated to europe later. we could call the alans a subdivision of the sarmatians who had their origin where the iran is located now. (iran-caucasus-europe) with that said the first alaunt relation of the bully kutta are persian LGDs such as the "Persian Sarabi Dog" aka "Persian Mastiff". in india these short coated LGDs (shepherds´ mastiffs of the alang tribes) were later called "Alangu Mastiffs" due to the fact alani tribes became known as alang tribes there.
the "Alangu Mastiff" is wrongly called "Sindh Mastiff" sometimes. it is a misnomer because they are not from sindh, but from iran.
the british influence later is both celtic- and alaunt influence, as both tribes, the celts and the alans, where the main influence to the short coated european dogge types. the dogs the britains later brought to the indian subcontinent.
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 23. May 2013, 03:21

freed wrote:How exactly was the relation between ancient persian and india/sindh? I am not sure when Persians came to India.


Relations between India and Iran date back to the Neolithic period. The existence of several empires spanning both Persia and northern India ensured the constant migration of people between the two regions and the spread and evolution of the Indo-Iranian language groups. As a consequence, the people of Northern India and Iran share significant cultural, linguistic and ethnic characteristics.
During much of the Cold War period, relations between the Republic of India and the erstwhile Imperial State of Iran suffered due to different political interests—non-aligned India fostered strong military links with the Soviet Union while Iran enjoyed close ties with the United States.[1] Following the 1979 revolution, relations between Iran and India strengthened momentarily. However, Iran's continued support for Pakistan (an arch-rival of India) and India's close relations with Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War impeded further development of Indo–Iranian ties.[2] Relations between the two countries warmed in the 1990s when India collaborated with Iran to support the Afghan Northern Alliance against the Taliban.[2][3]
Even though the two countries share some common strategic interests, India and Iran differ significantly on key foreign policy issues. India has expressed strong opposition against Iran's nuclear program and while both the nations continue to oppose the Taliban, India supports the presence of NATO forces in Afghanistan unlike Iran.[4] Despite the decline in strategic and military links, the two nations continue to maintain strong cultural and economic ties. Lucknow in Uttar Pradesh, India, continues to be a major center of Shiite culture and Persian study in South Asia. Iran is the second largest supplier of crude oil to India, supplying more than 425,000 barrels of oil per day, and consequently India is one of the largest foreign investors in Iran's oil and gas industry.[5]
In 2011, the $12 billion annual oil trade between India and Iran was halted due to extensive economic sanctions against Iran, forcing the Indian oil ministry to pay off the debt through a banking system via Turkey.[6][7]
Indo-Iranian relations have been strained as of December 14, 2012, due to India's "moving towards Washington

Bronze Age civilizations [edit]
The Indus Valley (Harappan) civilization, which is one of the oldest historically known civilizations, was located in India and Pakistan(Pre-Partition India), and was contemporary with the Proto-Elamite and Elamite civilizations in ancient Iran. The Indus people, and their ancestors, had trade links with Iran, the ancient civilization of Mesopotamia, and Egypt/Nubia. At Susa in the western part of Iran, decorated pottery has been excavated which appears to be similar to those of the Kulli culture in the north-west of the Indian subcontinent. Indus seals have also been excavated at Kish, Sura and Ur. India, imported silver, copper, turquoise and lapis lazuli from Persia in return for ivory.[9] Further, the Elamo-Dravidian languages form an assumed language family that includes the ancient Elamite language of western Iran and the Dravidian languages of India (now found mostly in the south), suggesting a possible linguistic relationship between the Elamites and Harappans before the arrival of the Indo-Iranians speaking tribes from western Central Asia. The Elamo-Dravidian family, however, is in dispute, and scholars such as Elfenbein suggest a possibility of late arrival (c. 1000 CE) amongst segments of Brahui speakers from Central India.
Pre-Islamic Persia and Vedic civilization era [edit]
The languages of the northern, western, central, and eastern regions of India belonging to the Indo-Aryan family have originated from the same source as the Iranian languages, namely the Indo-Iranian language family, that itself is a member of the Satem group of Indo-European languages. The Indo-Iranians were a semi-nomadic people originating from the Central Asian steppes, via the Oxus river valley, at c. 2000 BCE.[10]
Vedic Indian people referred to themselves as Aryas. The word Arya in classical Sanskrit means "noble".[11] Ancient central and northern India was also referred to as Aryavarta, meaning "abode of the Arya". Ancient Persian, such as Darius in his Behistun inscription, referred to themselves as (Ariya), from which the word "Iran" originates (such as Avestan airyanam vaejo meaning "expanse of the Aryans").
Vedic civilization began in India around 1500 BCE, with the Rigveda being the oldest of the Vedas. The Rigveda was composed in Vedic Sanskrit, which is very similar to Avestan, the ancient language of the Persia Zoroastrian sacred text Avesta. According to the Vendidad (ch.1), the Ariya lived in sixteen countries, one of them being Hapta Hindu, which is the Avestan form of the Sanskrit Sapta Sindhu (Rigveda), meaning "seven rivers" and referring to the northwestern region of the Indian subcontinent. Ancient Vedic religion and Zoroastrianism also have much else in common.
The Vedas and the Avesta include the performance of sacrifice (Sanskrit yajna or Avestan yasna) and the importance of priests. Many myths that appear in the Yasht part of the Avesta have their roots in ancient Indo-Iranian culture.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%8 ... _relations
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby IamTitanium on 23. May 2013, 03:24

freed wrote:How exactly was the relation between ancient persian and india/sindh? I am not sure when Persians came to India.


more about the relation between iran & india

Achaemenid Period and Maurya Period [edit]
The emergence of the Achaemenid empire in Persia, founded by Hakhāmaniš saw parts of northwestern subcontinent(modern day Pakistan) come under Persian rule. Indian emissaries were present at the courts of Cyrus the Great or Kurush (590 BCE – 529 BCE), whose empire extended as far east as Gandhara and Sind. It is also believed that when Cyrus was threatened by Croesus of Lydia, he received military assistance from at least one Indian king.[12] Under Darius I or Darayava(h)ush (519 BCE – 485 BCE), inscriptions refer to Persian relations with India. The Behistun rock inscription (ancient Bagastana "place of Gods") dating back to 519 BCE includes Gandhara in the list of his subject countries. The epigraph of Nakhsh-i-Rustam shows India as the 24th province of his empire. It was believed to be the richest in Darius's empire. Herodotus tells us of the wealth and density of the Indus population and of the tribute paid to Darius:
The population of the Indians is by far the greatest of all the people that we know; and they paid tribute proportionately larger than all the rest – (the sum of) 360 talents of gold dust.
Herodotus also mentions the Indian contingent in the Persian armies consisting of infantry, cavalry, and chariots. Later, elephants are also mentioned.[13] Under Xerxes I or Khshaya-arsha, the successor of Darius, Indians (specifically from the northwest, Bactria and Gandhara) fought alongside the Persian army against the Greeks in the battlefields of Plataea and Marathon.[14]
During the same time India saw the emergence of the Maurya Empire, which was led by Chandragupta Maurya of Magadha in modern day Bihar. They were focusing on taking over Central Asia. Seleucus is said to have reach a peace treaty with Chandragupta by giving control of the territory south of the Hindu Kush to him upon intermarriage and 500 elephants. Mauryans were followers of Hinduism, Jainism and Buddhism. At its greatest extent, the empire stretched to the north along the natural boundaries of the Himalayas, and to the east stretching into what is now Assam province in India. To the west, it conquered beyond modern Pakistan, annexing Balochistan, south eastern parts of Iran and much of what is now Afghanistan, including the modern Herat and Kandahar provinces.[15]
Achaemenian art and architecture had a significant influence on northwestern part of Maurya India. Even before the Mauryan period of history, there is heavy evidence of writing in northwestern India. It has been suggested that the idea of issuing decrees by Ashoka was borrowed from the Achaemenian emperors, especially from Darius. The animal capitals of pillars in Mauryan imperial art were the inspiration for Achaemenian pillars.[16] The use of this means of propagating official messages and the individual style of the inscriptions in ancient Iran and Greece is similar.
Trade expanded mainly because Achaemenids introduced coinage, which facilitated exchange. India exported spices like black pepper and imported gold and silver coins from Iran.[16] The grape, introduced from Persia with the almond and walnut, was cultivated in the Hindukush and western Himalayas.[17] One of the earliest Persian words for a coin is Karsha (also a small weight).[18]
According to Herodotus, Artaxerxes[disambiguation needed] or Artakshathra exempted the inhabitants of four Babylonian villages from taxation in return for their breeding Indian dogs for hunting and war. Dogs are rarely mentioned with respect in ancient Indian literature and was rarely, if ever, treated as a pet. The exception occurs in the Mahabharata, when the five Pandavas and their wife Draupadi take their dog with them on their final pilgrimage to heaven, and the eldest brother Yudhisthira refuses to enter without his faithful friend. It has been suggested that the episode shows Iranian influence, because for the Zoroastrians, the dog was a sacred animal.[17]
In 330 BCE, Alexander the Great defeated Darius III. In the decisive battle of Gaugamela, Indus soldiers with fifteen elephants fought with Darius against the Greeks.[19] Alexander marched into South Asia after defeating the Persians. Chandragupta Maurya, who founded the Mauryan dynasty, had friendly relations with the successor of the Macedonian conqueror in Persia. Seleucus Nicator, the Hellenistic ruler of Persia, sent Megasthenes as envoy of Hellenistic Persia to the court of Pataliputra in India, the seat of the Mauryas. Persian nobles were also present in the courts of Mauryan kings. Tushaspa, a Persian, was present during the reign of Chandragupta Maurya.
Under the reign of King Ashoka of the Indian Maurya Empire, Buddhism was helped to spread throughout the eastern region of Iran. A great number of Buddhist missionaries were sent to spread the teachings of Buddha, and rock edicts set up by Ashoka state that he sent some to his North-West territories, which included the eastern territories of modern day Iran.[20]
Gupta and Sassanid Periods [edit]
The Sassanian period in Persia (226–651 CE) coincided with the Gupta period (308–651 CE) in India. The Sassanian monarchs maintained relations with the Gupta empire which was based in Pataliputra. Pulakesin, the ruler of the Deccan, was known in Persia,[citation needed] and there were frequent embassies between Persia and India. Trade flourished as Persian merchants acted as intermediaries in the flow of goods between India and Europe. One of the murals in the Ajanta caves near Mumbai depicts a Hindu king with men in Sassanian dress.[21] In the 6th century, sandalwood, magenta, shells, corals, pearls, gold and silver are said to have been traded between India and Persia.[22] Bam, in south-east Iran, was a major commercial and trading town on the famous Spice Road, a major tributary of the Silk Road, that connected trade routes from India through Iran to Central Asia and China.
Kushana and Gandhara art included of Parthian and east Iranian elements. Sassanian motifs are also visible in Gupta art. On the other side, the Indian peacock, dragons, cocks and spiral creepers[disambiguation needed] adorn Sassanian monuments.[23] The tiles of the Harvan monastery near Srinagar have Sassanian-influenced decorations, signifying the extent of Sassanid influence in the Kashmir valley.[24]
According to the Shahnameh of Ferdowsi (11th century), the 5th century Sassanian king Bahram V requested Indian king Shangol to select 12,000 "Gypsies", or Indian musicians, and introduced them to Persia. These Gypsies are believed to be the ancestors of the Persian Gypsies. They propagated Indian music and dancing in Persia, and may have travelled further west to Europe in the next four to five hundred years. It is possible that these "Gypsies" are the ancestors of the modern Roma people in Europe. It is also believed that Bahram visited India in the 5th century. Persian poet Hakim Nizami Ganjavi has alluded to the Indian wife of king Behram in his famous work Haft Paikar (seven figures) indicating instances of inter-marriage.[21]
During the reign of the Sassanian king Khosrau (531–579 CE), the game of chess (Chaturanga in India) is believed to have been introduced to Persia (where it was known as Shatranj).[25] Later, when Persia was conquered by the Arabs, the game quickly spread all over the middle east and then to Europe. The original game was played on 64 squares (astapada) with a king piece and pieces of four other types, corresponding to the corps of the ancient Indian armies – an elephant (rook), a horse (knight), a chariot or ship and four footmen (pawns).[26] Under Khosrau, Jundishpur was developed as a leading center of Persian medicine, in which the Indian Ayurvedic system was syncretized with the Greek system propagated there by the Nestorian Christians. Burzuya, the physician to Khosrau, was sent to India to bring back works on medicine and searched for the so-called "elixir of life". Burzuya on his return is said to have brought stories of the Panchatantra with him.[27] The Panchatantra is an ancient collection of Indian fables, and it was translated from Sanskrit to Pahlavi by Burzuya, who called it Kalila-va-Demna. Also in the field of medicine, the Charaka Samhita, the famous Indian medical text by the physician Charaka was translated to Persian and then to Arabic in the 7th century. In the field of astronomy, an early Pahlavi book Zik-i-Shatro Ayar, which was an astronomical work based on Indian elements was translated into Arabic by Al-Tamimi.[28]
According to the Christian Topography of Cosmas Indicopleustes of the 6th century, there were churches in Kerala and Ceylon in the hands of Persian priests, supervised by a Persian bishop at Kalliana (perhaps modern Kalyan or Cochin). Indian Christians had embraced Nestorianism, which was then widespread in Persia. The Nestorians were active missionaries and crossed Central Asia to found churches even in China. These missionaries following in the wake of Persian merchants are believed to be chiefly responsible for establishing a Christian community in south India.[29]
Buddhist influence in Pre-Islamic Persia [edit]
Buddhism became widespread in Persia within a few hundred years of its emergence in India. Under the reign of King Ashoka of the Maurya Empire, Buddhism was helped to spread throughout Iran. A great number of Buddhist missionaries were sent to spread the teachings of Buddha, and rock edicts set up by Ashoka state that he sent some to his North-West territories, which included the eastern territories of modern day Iran.[20] The Kushana king Kanishka in north India became a great patron of Buddhist faith. Kanishka patronized the Gandhara school of Greco-Buddhist art, which introduced Greek and Persian elements into Buddhist iconography. Buddhism became the religion of the east Iranian province of Khorasan through the Kushana emperors.[citation needed] The legendary biography of the Buddha in Sanskrit – the Buddhacharita – composed by Ashvaghosha – was translated into Khotanese, Sogdian and Parthian, followed by Pahlavi, then Arabic and other languages. In Iran, the story of Ibrahim ibn Adham, the prince who abandoned his kingdom to lead a religious life, is modelled on that of the Buddha.[30]
In Central Asia there was a mixture of languages, religions, and cultures, and, as Buddhism interacted with these various traditions, it changed and developedied Shamanism, Zoroastrianism, Nestorian Christianity, and later Islam coexisted with Buddhism. For example, some of the Mahayana bodhisattvas, such as Amitabha, may have been inspired, in part, by Zoroastrianism.[citation needed] There is also evidence of some degree of syncretism between Buddhism and Manichaeism, an Iranian dualistic religion that was founded in the 3rd century CE. Zoroastrianism and Buddhism also came in close contact in northwest India.[31]
Buddhist architecture and imagery probably influenced and was influenced by its Persian counterpart, as Buddhism spread in Persia.[32] The blue of turquoise from Khorasan became the symbol of the 'mind by nature luminous' (cittam prakriti-prabhasvaram), and the spires of Buddhist monasteries were made of turquoise, as blue was the colour of meditation. The shades of blue porcelain created by the Buddhists of East Asia signified the subtle planes of contemplation. This tradition was adopted centuries later by the blue mosques of Persia.[32] The Jandial temple near Taxila was probably Zoroastrian.[33]
Paintings on the walls of the Alchi monastery in Ladakh (northern Kashmir) reproduced in detail Sassanian motifs on textiles. They can be seen in round medallions with mythical animals. The most ancient stringed instrument from Persia – a red-sandalwood five-stringed veena – has been preserved at the Todaiji monastery in Nara, Japan since the 8th century. It is decorated with a Persian motif in mother-of-pearl inlay and represents a cultural exchange between the Persian and the Buddhist world.
The Tibetan histories of medicine relate that Jivaka, the physician to Lord Buddha was born as the son of King Bimbisara. The legend goes that as a child he once he saw a group of white-clad men and asked his father who they were. The king replied, "They are doctors and they protect people from diseases". He then wished to become a doctor and he asked his father for permission. King Bimbisara sent him to Taxila. These white-clad men were Iranians, who were famous physicians as attested by Sanskrit texts.[34]
Buddhist literature also influenced early Persian compositions. Early Persian poetry created abstract mental forms recalling the grace of Buddhist statues. Up to the 11th century, Persian poetry came from Khorasan, Sogdiana and adjacent areas, which were once steeped in Buddhism. The metaphor of Bot (Buddha) was constant and exclusive in early Persian poetry. The facial type of bot-e-mahruy ("moon-faced statue") was the norm in Persian paintings and poetry.[34] The Parthians are said to have translated Sanskrit texts into Chinese. An Shih-Kao was a Parthian prince who became a Buddhist monk. He came to China in 148 CE and translated 95 Sanskrit works on Buddhism into Chinese. 55 of them are still available in Chinese Tripitaka. Another Parthian prince, An Huen, translated two Sanskrit works into Chinese in 181 CE.[34]
Islamic conquest of Persia and pre-Sultanate period in India [edit]
In the 7th century, after the Persians lost the battle of al-Qādisiyyah in 637 CE to the Islamic Arab armies, the Sassanian dynasty came to an end. Following this, a large community of Zoroastrians migrated to India through the Strait of Hormuz. In 712 CE, the Arabs under the command of Muhammad bin Qasim also invaded Sind from the west.
One Jadagu from Gujarat is said to have been a maritime trader with Iran.[35]
After Islam took over Persia, Zoroastrianism practically disappeared from the country. Some followers of the religion fled Persia and took refuge in western India. They were the ancestors of today's Parsees or Parsis in India. The Parsis began arriving in India from around 636 CE. Their first permanent settlements were at Sanjan, 100 miles north of Bombay. They are believed to have built a big fire temple at Sanjan in 790 CE with the fire they had brought from Iran with them.[36] According to the Parsees legend, a band of refugees settled first at Diu in Saurashtra and then at Thane near Bombay in the early 8th century.[36] Their connection with their co-religionists in Iran seems to have been almost totally broken until later in the 15th century. Even today, Parsis maintain a cultural relationship with Iran, travelling to the cities of Tehran, Yazd and Kerman in Iran for pilgrimage. In the modern era, the Parsi community have contributed significantly to India and Pakistan in the areas of politics, industry, science, and culture. Prominent Indian Parsis include Dadabhai Naoroji (three times president of Indian National Congress), Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw, nuclear energy scientist Homi Bhabha, industrialist JRD Tata and the Tata family. The Queen rock star Freddie Mercury was an Indian Parsi born in Zanzibar.
The century following the Arab conquest of Sind was one in which Hindu culture influenced Arab Islamic and Persian Islamic culture. The scientific study of astronomy in Islam commenced under the influence of an Indian work, Siddhanta, which was brought to Baghdad by 771 through translations.[37] In about 800 CE, the Indian mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata's treatise Aryabhatiya was translated into Arabic under the title Zij-al-Arjabhar. Before that, in 772 CE, Brahmagupta Brahmasphuta-Siddhanta and the Khandakhadyaka, were taken to Baghdad and translated into Arabic. The knowledge of Hindu numerals and the decimal place value system reached the Arabs along with other Indian mathematical-astronomical works rendered into Arabic in the 8th and 9th century, giving rise to the Hindu-Arabic numeral system.[38] In the 10th century, a Persian pharmacologist Abu Mansur Muwaffaq ibn Ali al Harawi of Herat wrote Kitab’l Abniya an Haq’iq’l Adwiya (book of Foundations of the True Properties of Remedies). Believed to be the oldest prose work in modern Persian, the book utilized material from Indian sources among others.[37]
The Sh'ubia movement in Iran preserved Iranian non-Arab traditions and also used their knowledge to translate Sanskrit works on mathematics, astronomy, medicine and other sciences into Arabic. They used their knowledge of Sanskrit grammar to systematize Arabic grammar. The Sahihs of al-Bukhari and the Sunan of al-Tirmidhi are collections of the Hadith, which in their Iranian version seems to have been influenced by Buddhist works. The Hadith begins with “Thus have I heard”, which is also the usual beginning of Buddhist scriptures (evam maya srutam). The term srutam implies historic sanctity and glory, as does the hadith, which for Muslims is on par with the Quran.[34]
Delhi Sultanate dynasties in India [edit]
In the 11th century, Islam came to India through the conquest by Mahmud of Ghazni of the Ghaznavid Empire, established by his father, Sebuktegin, a Turkic origin ruler. In 1160, Muhammad Ghori, a Turkic ruler, conquered Ghazni from the Ghaznavids and became its governor in 1173. Muhammad Ghori's successors established the Delhi Sultanate. The Turkic origin Mamluk Dynasty seized the throne of the Sultanate in 1211. Several Central Asian Turkic dynasties ruled their empires from Delhi: the Mamluk (1211–90), the Khalji (1290–1320), the Tughlaq (1320–1413), the Sayyid (1414–51) and the Lodhi (1451–1526). The subsequent form of Islam that reached India had a rich Persian influence. The art and architecture of Iran came to be associated with Islam. Ghaznavi brought along a number of poets, artisans and religious persons who settled down in India. Lahore in the Punjab became an important centre of Persian literature, art and mysticism. Ghaznavi's successors would be supplanted by the Ghorids, who would continue to patron Persian culture. The Ghorids would in turn be overthrown by Qutub-ud-Din Aibak, who was raised by the chief Qazi of Nishapur.[39] In 1206, Qutub-ud-din founded the Delhi Sultanate and the Mamluk Dynasty. During the Delhi Sultanate, Turks, Tartars and some Arabs who had imbibed Iranian influence came to India. During the rule of the Khilji dynasty (14th century) several Persian scholars from Tabriz and Isfahan visited the royal courts in India.[40]
During the 11th century, Al-Biruni, believed to be a Shia Muslim of Iranian origin born in Khwarizm in northern Iran, visited India during the Ghaznavi period. He wrote his famous Kitab-ul-Hind in Arabic, which involved a detailed study of Indian customs, traditions and the Indian way of life. Earlier, many Indian works on astronomy, mathematics and medicine had been translated into Arabic during the early Abbasid period, and Al-Biruni, who was also very interested in astronomy and mathematics, refers to some of these texts. Biruni was a prolific writer, and besides his mother tongue, Khwarizmi (an Eastern Iranian language), Persian and Arabic, he also knew Hebrew, Syriac and Sanskrit.[41] He studied Sanskrit manuscripts to check earlier Arabic writings on India. Al Biruni composed about 20 books on India – both originals and translations, and a great number of legends based on the folklore of ancient Persia and India. He developed a special interest in the Samkhya Yoga traditions of Indian philosophy and the Bhagavad Gita. He was possibly the first foreign scholar to have seriously studied the Puranas, specially the Vishnu Dharma.[42] Biruni also rendered the al-Majest of Ptolemy and Geometry of Euclid into Sanskrit.[43]
The earliest evidence of Arabic-Persian influence on Indian astronomy is of the second half of the 14th century. Mahendra Suri, a court astronomer of the Sultan Feroz Shah Tughlaq (1351–1388), composed in 1370 a treatise entitled Yantraraja. Based on Persian knowledge, it described the construction and use of the astrolabe, an instrument developed by Arab astronomers. Another Indian astronomer who made use of Arabic/Persian knowledge was Kamalakara, who wrote a treatise on astronomy called Siddhanta-tatva-viveka. Later it was Sawai Jai Singh II who showed the greatest interest in Arabic/Persian astronomy.[38]
During this period, several Hindu and Jain religious and philosophical texts from Sanskrit and Prakrit were translated into Persian. These include the Ramayana, Mahabharata, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Nalopakhyana (Nala and Damayanti), Bhagavata Purana, Vishnu Purana, Shiva Purana, Skanda Purana, Vayu Purana, Brahmanda Purana, Brahma Vaivarta Purana, Harivamsa, Atharva Veda, Yoga Vashishtha, Sankara Bhasya, Atma Vilasa, Amrita Kunda, Prabodhacandrodaya and Vraja Mahatmya.[44]
The first Sikh guru, Guru Nanak, traveled through Iran on his way to visit the Middle East and Mecca. In Khuram Shahr (Iran) Guru Nanak buried his Muslim friend Bhai Mardana. An Arabic inscription on a Shrine in Baghdad speaks of Guru Nanak's travels to Iran: "Thus lived he, lonely, devoted, thoughtful, for 60 years, sitting before the stone on which thy sacred feet had rested. And ere he left this house of avidya, he wrote these words on the stone: Here spake Baba Nanak to fakir Bahlol, and for these 60 years, since the Guru left Iran, the soul of Bahlol has rested on the Master's Word, like a bee poised on a dawnlit honey rose".[45]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India%E2%8 ... _relations
IamTitanium
 
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby freed on 24. May 2013, 14:39

OMG that was a lot to read, but only the early relations are interesting when it comes to dogs here.
freed
 
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Re: Bully Kutta

Postby sunnyAK on 26. May 2013, 03:17

I am inclined to think that it is far more likely that these mastiff-type dogs sculptured on the Assyrian slabs, mural relief etc. were a breed which either existed in Assyria itself at that date or was introduced from Sarmatia, Albania, Hyrcania, or Iberia, or some of those northern parts of Asia above' Armenia, which we read of having possessed dogs large, and courageous enough that they were able coped with the lion successfully. Beside that the mural reliefs show dogs more similar to a Kangal and in some cases also to a smooth coated St. Bernard (or extinct Alpine Mastiff) than to the shaggy, long coated Mastiff of Tibet.
The Pontic-Caspian steppe is the vast steppeland stretching from the northern shores of the Black Sea as far east as the Caspian Sea, from western Ukraine across the Southern Federal District and the Volga Federal District of Russia to western Kazakhstan, forming part of the larger Eurasian steppe, adjacent to the Kazakh steppe to the east. It is of the paleartic temperate grasslands, savannas, and shrublands ecoregion of the temperate grasslands, savannas, and shrublands biome.
The area corresponds to Scythia and Sarmatia of Classical antiquity. Across several millennia the steppe was used by numerous tribes of nomadic horsemen, many of which went on to conquer lands in the settled regions of Europe and in western and southern Asia. It was finally brought under the control of a sedentary people by the Russian Empire in the 16th to 18th centuries.
The term Ponto-Caspian region is used in biogeography for plants and animals of these steppes, and animals from the Black, Caspian and Azov seas. Genetic research has identified this region as the most probable place where horses were first domesticated. It is known that the Sarmatians had large dogs. were an Iranian people in Classical Antiquity, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.
Their territory was known as Sarmatia to Greco-Roman ethnographers, corresponding to the western part of greater Scythia (modern Ukraine,Southern Russia, and the eastern Balkans). At their greatest reported extent, around 100 BC, these tribes ranged from the Vistula River to the mouth of the Danube and eastward to the Volga, bordering the shores of the Black and Caspian seas as well as the Caucasus to the south.
The Sarmatians declined in the 4th century with the incursions connected to the Migration period (Huns, Goths). The descendants of the Sarmatians became known as the Alans during the Early Middle Ages, and ultimately gave rise to the modern Ossetic ethnic group

According to the dominant Kurgan hypothesis in Indo-European studies, the Pontic-Caspian steppe was the homeland of the speakers of the Proto-Indo-European language, and these same speakers were the original domesticators of the horse.

Did the ancestral mastiff come from Assyria and Mesopotamia, which is so often referred to as the cradle of civilization? Paul Strang, a cynologist and a noted authority on the Great Pyrenees, observes in his book The Complete Great Pyrenees, that the existence of massive native breeds today in Turkey, Iran, and Southern Russia could support the theory that the ancestors of today's mastiff breeds came from the Middle East. Other serious cynologists, such as David and Judy Nelson, agree with that possibility. Experts on the Turkish native breeds, they have been involved in field observations and research in that area of the world for over twenty years. Their work in the eastern regions of Turkey (due north of ancient Nineveh, as the crow flies) has focused Western attention on the Kangal Dog, a native of the Sivas region of Turkey.

The Kangal Dog is a classic example of a "natural," working mastiff without the exaggerated body proportions seen in many of the more "modernized" breeds today. Nonetheless, the Kangal Dog is identifiable as a mastiff, powerfully built with pendant ears, relatively short, heavy neck etc. Used as both a livestock guardian and a military dog, this dog is itself an object of national pride, so much so that the Turkish government sponsors several breeding facilities and limits its export.

If we take a look at the build Kangals have, they could be very well used for hunting too. They are totally different in build as for example Tibetan Mastiffs. We also know that the Assyrian Mastiffs were used for guarding as well as for hunting purpose.

http://s1.bild.me/bilder/160512/3890493 ... rd_Dog.jpg

In my opinion this comparison is pretty interesting and if we consider how close Turkey is to Babylon and other cities where dogs of such phenotype can be seen in mural reliefs, it is very likely that the closest descendants can be found in Turkey.
I assume that dogs of the Pontic-Caspian steppe, Turkey, the area that now is Armenia, the Caucasus, Kazakhstan and a part of modern Ukraine and Russia were more or less, the same Mastiff-type dogs and had an influence on each other and were a landrace that could be found in all these countries.
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