The landrace "Serbian Sylvan Dog"

The landrace "Serbian Sylvan Dog"

Postby sunnyAK on 7. December 2011, 19:32

Serbian Sylvan Dog

first of all this is a landrace and no breed and a lot of mystical and hyped rumours have been spread, that are simply not true and intented to make it look like an "ancient super dog" that still can be found in serbia. but once you forget all the romanticized stuff you see what it is, namely just a normal dog!

average size:
around 29 inch (smaller dogs as well as a little bit bigger dogs exist.)
weight:
50-65 kg
temperament:
stubborn, dissmissive towards strangers, some individuals tend to be shy. they are known for having very small litters, usually only 2 or 3 pups per season, the dogs have a higher rank drive than most "western molosser breeds". the shorter coated individuals have been described as having tendencies of being a "one person breed".


across the balkan there are varieties of shorter coated LGDs.
even in LGD types with longer coat it can happen that some dogs have a shorter coat than other dogs belonging to the same "breed", but there are also short coated breeds (varieties).
some of the shorter coated dogs were used as LGDs, sentry guards and fighters and some of that dogs also show interest in hunting.
while the Sharplaniac is mainly kept as LGD the "Serbian Sylvan" is a dog that has been frequently crossed to other guard dogs and often has been kept as sentry guard on a chain and is very heterogeneous in phenotype. typical for a landrace that is kept for this and that work.

this goes for the "Serbian Sylvans" but as well for the Albanski Brvnarski pas-Rudat.
it makes no sense to view the Serbian Sylvan as a very different dog, all LGD types in this region are pretty similar dogs in temperament. like the Rudat the Sylvan is sharper than other breeds belonging to this region and they are sometimes used for farm work too, but they are basically LGD types (and not catch dogs) bred to other farm dogs and herders like GSDs that could be found there, as the serbian region is an area that has suffered conquest and conformity to various surrounding powers that inhabited the region. saying they have an ancient unchanged breed that is exclusive to their country and the grandfather figure of "gripping dogs" of course makes no sense.

Image
Image
Image

basically the dogs are shepherds mostly based on black & tan. recently some larger dogs and totally smooth coated dogs have been bred, but they are not the dogs that were originally called Sylvans. these dogs are modern German Mastiff x LGD crosses. often even German Mastiff x CAO
the smooth coated Serbian Sylvan is no ancient dog, but a modern German Mastiff x LGD cross. if we take a look at other related countries, they also have normal shepherd dogs in black & tan. the dogs are related, but are in no way mastiffs of the large game hunting type.
the whole story of an ancient smooth coated gripping mastiff is a new one created with a certain agenda and with the intention to make money! the smooth coated dogs that now are labeld as "Serbian Sylvans" are German Mastiff x LGD crosses!

Image
this dog is for sure an impressive looking dog, but many people say this picture also was photoshopped and it strangely is the one and only picture of this dog :-/ and beside that i don´t buy the whole "Serbian Sylvan" story of an ancient smooth coated gripping mastiff. the smooth coated dogs that now are labeled as "Serbian Sylvans" are German Mastiff x LGD crosses,
this dog here is another good example of such a cross and it was also labeled as pure smooth coated ancient "Serbian Sylvan"
Image
and here another one:
Image

the German Mastiff is pretty obvious, in these so called smooth coated "ancient Serbian Sylvans".

here are some statements of a person who comes from this area and who did unbiased research:
"It is interesting that the story of a short-fur Silvans began several years ago. People who claimed they were well-known breeders, but nobody knew who they were.
Informations that I will now tell you I got from my Serbian friends.
They didn"t belived in fairy tales about short-fur Silvans, so they did a little research. They found that most dogs that are placed on the Internet as Silvans are in fact different mixes mainly from dog shelters (many images are processed in photoshop).

Image

Someone had written that this is an old picture where are Silvans in his familly yard.
Image
Original photo.
Image

All of this was posted on several (Serbian) forums. When it was discovered that these images are fake people who put them on that forums were banned. There was lot of pictures, but when that people saw that they were exposed they deleted those photos."

again, above this is what an unbiased gentleman from this area can tell about these dogs and it sounds extremely different to the romanticized version that can be read on MolosserDogs.


sunnyAK

the same info i have written
in the sub-category
of my board:

http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/index.php
sunnyAK
 
Posts: 57
Joined: 7. December 2011, 17:04

Re: The landrace "Serbian Sylvan Dog"

Postby sunnyAK on 5. January 2012, 23:44

now some crosspost of discussion with peole who prefer "breed-glorifying" over facts.

GunakaTonedog wrote:Again, boar hunting dogs are comprised primarily of gripping dog blood. Or they at least get their lugging aptitude from a percentage of gripping dog. Doesn't matter if it comes from a boxer, a neo, an ambull, an ebt or a bullmastiff, all very different looking dogs on the surface, and breeds with different jobs described in their breed profiles, but all very similar as far as what they are at a more basic level, what's inside them and what they offer a cross- that instinct and aptitude to grip and subdue unruly beasts. And this exposes the fact they're all fundamentally the same type of dog from the same family. A family that evolved specifically for that task of subduing beasts.
The whole serbian sylvan furor recently is suggesting the serbian sylvan might actually be the grandfather figure for the family.
Some breeds which descend (at least largely) from this family and should be categorised in this family include-
Rottweiler
Great dane
Fila brasileiro
Tosa
Dogue de bordeaux
Presa canario
Cimarron Uruguayo
Bully kutta
Neo mastiff
Cane corso
Boerboel
Bullmastiff
English mastiff
Broholmer
Alano espanol
Dogo argentino
Boxer
English bulldog
American bulldog
Gull terr
Apbt
Ebt
SBT
amstaff
etc...

Note that the rottweiler is not a particularly biddable breed and has a different personality to the rest, fairly independent and headstrong etc. This to me is interesting and indicates the rottweiler, despite being a very well known breed is actually a fairly ancient one in form and function, it represents an early stage in gripping dog evolution when they were starting out, starting to take shape. Since then gripping dogs have become much more biddable, they've evolved over the centuries to live with people, that's been a strong selective pressure on them directing their evolution and they've headed in this direction. The rott is a relic of sorts. But still firmly belongs in this family, almost as a father figure to it.


sunnyAK wrote:i really cannot stop laughing that the so called "Serbian Sylvan" is the "grandfather figure" the big ancestor of all these dog. your latest theory is just as weird as wolf´s breed profile is romanticized and fictitious. ::)

again, this statement is so funny! :rolleyes: :lach:
Gun aka Tonedogs:
The whole serbian sylvan furor recently is suggesting the serbian sylvan might actually be the grandfather figure for the family.

cheers
sunnyAK (Andreas)


planinac wrote:I do not care where it will be some breed profiles, and I dont have reason to worry about.
I know some facts and I wrote them, everyone must decide independently whether to believe or not to that facts.


sunnyAK wrote:exactly and i find it ridiculous that Tonedog (Gun) attacked you in this thread. I mean come on, does he really think he knows more about the dogs of your area than you. :rolleyes:



sunnyAK wrote:
xLordxBoris wrote: what is gripping dogs? i dont understand that...


haha this is a word used by Gun aka Tonedog. he refers to dogs used as large game hunters keeping a grip (a hold) on prey.

xLordxBoris wrote:my post was more like a question cause i didnt understand what u want to say... i didnt mean u claim anything...
i wrote before also,most dogs on these pics r mutts!
sylvan was indeed shepherd and had longer coat.


well, that´s exactly what i said but guys like Gun aka Tonedog or some of the MolosserDogs guys, like Wolf, Crnoscre1 and all these guys with serbian ties try to represent the smooth coated "Serbian Sylvans" as an ancient Serbian breed.

xLordxBoris wrote:about germany mastiffs crosses in serbia,i dunno where u got this idea,cause there is really no much great danes in serbia and examples we have r mostly show dogs.


if they are show dogs or not that doesn´t matter at all. the german mastiff is used in many crosses because it brings a lot to the table concerning things beside temperament. (they are not used because of temperament, but because of other things they have to offer)
look at the black dog with yellow letters. you get such results with CAO x German Mastiff crosses.

xLordxBoris wrote:
germany was also suffered many conformity. u know how it was it after war and even today,many people from balkan come there and bring some of their culture also. how many serbs is in germany? albanians,croatians etc...
also,how germany have mastiffs?



people from balkan have no big role here in germany. they are here because they have a better life here that in their own country. most of them are the opposite of wealthy and they have no influence on our breeds, so it has nothing to do with dogs.
the reason why we have mastiffs can be explained easily. our german mastiffs have a british backround long before WWII and the breed never was extinct.

so you see this is the difference. i don´t claim the German Mastiff fell from the sky in germany. i am not a biased guy like these "Serbian Sylvan" guys who even try to manipulate history and say the "sylvan" was used for creating the German Mastiff. :lol:

everything is explained here:
http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=33
and here:
http://www.carnivoraforum.com/index.cgi ... read=12604
and here on this board:
http://bb2.atbb.jp/rodem/viewtopic.php?t=321
(read especially the nationalisitic serbian-crap i have quoted here before i wrote the truth about the German Mastiff. our German Mastiff doesn´t go back to some serbian of greek LGDs etc. :roll: but to british mastiffs and sighthounds!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

this is what the same guy who has written the romanticized and nationalistic motivated breed profiles on MolosserDogs is saying about the German Mastiff. he even tries to trace back the German Mastiff to greek and other balkan LGDs and boarhounds being blended with dragons a type of serbian sylvans, :roll: although it is a well know fact that the German Mastiff goes back to british sighthounds & mastiffs and german bullenbeissers.

ok, here wolf´s serbian/nationalistic motivated statements about the origin of the German Mastiff. ::)

Wolf:
"The Greek-German Suliot Dog is code for Sylvan. The Suliot dogs of Greece were based in boarhound/LGD crossbreds being blended with pure Dragons and kept by the people remembered as Suliots, who were Greek-Serbian-Albanian nobles operating as united warriors in occupied territories. Once they were no longer needed, they traveled with Slavic pig drivers northward and dispersed all over what we call Germany."


the real facst about the German Mastiff can be read here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13
sunnyAK
 
Posts: 57
Joined: 7. December 2011, 17:04

Re: The landrace "Serbian Sylvan Dog"

Postby sunnyAK on 5. January 2012, 23:49

sunnyAK wrote:
xLordxBoris wrote:lol,dog with yellow font is not sylvan for sure! xD
naah... sylvan and great dane dont have nothing in common.
and for gripping dog,u mean catch dogs? no,sylvan wasnt catch dog. people think on old mastif who is probably ancestor of sylvan,sar and serbian breeds. sop is recreated based on them... it was something btw mastif and shepherd.
something like alaunt maybe. this dog was indeed used as catch dog (for hunting),war dog and flock guardian. but this dog wasnt sylvan.
at least i think. people need to understand it was time before 1000 years when this dog lived. i dunno no1 who lived in that age... xD
there was middle-short coated dog that people sing in songs and call them lions. sop is recreation of them but these dogs lived long time ago and no much info about them... sylvan,sar etc have origin from this dog probably,but r not that dog,there i agree.



then we both basically agree boris. this is what i was saying, but some people with serbian ties (they are not even real serbians, they have serbian ties)
mentioned the serbian sylvan of valley type was an ancient smooth coated "gripping mastiff".
and Gun (you still know him from the discussions he had with suliman) defended all this crap.

xLordxBoris wrote:people from balkan maybe dont have big role,but bring some of their dogs there also. when germany was splitted in 2 parts,some other cultures didnt take roll?
tc! ;)


but their dogs really have no influence on the German Mastiff mate. the German Mastiff is kept very pure, like all dogs that are bred for being pure, because this is what shows want. they want dogs with a homogenous phenotype.
germany was splitted, but other cultures didn´t have a role on west germany as far as dogs are concerned, as after all west germany was not occupied by americans in they typical sense, it was more like being liberated from hitler.
it was a good thing and then country was stable and democratic again.
turks came to germany because here was a lot of dog to do, but they came as guests. you know it was not like the situation in the balkan long ago, where turks did come for other reasons. (i would be the last one who wants to hurt anybody! all wars were pathetic crap and i just wanted to say that the situation in the balkan was a different one.) so Serbian Sylvans were no smooth coated "gripping dogs" and it is idiotic to view the "Serbian Sylvan" as grandfather figure of dogs like Presa Canario, Dogo Argentino, German Mastiff.
etc.

this is basically what i said and where i totally disagree with Gun aka Tonedog
:!: (this is his name on MD)


here is what Gun said: :roll:

Gun wrote:Again, boar hunting dogs are comprised primarily of gripping dog blood. Or they at least get their lugging aptitude from a percentage of gripping dog. Doesn't matter if it comes from a boxer, a neo, an ambull, an ebt or a bullmastiff, all very different looking dogs on the surface, and breeds with different jobs described in their breed profiles, but all very similar as far as what they are at a more basic level, what's inside them and what they offer a cross- that instinct and aptitude to grip and subdue unruly beasts. And this exposes the fact they're all fundamentally the same type of dog from the same family. A family that evolved specifically for that task of subduing beasts.
The whole serbian sylvan furor recently is suggesting the serbian sylvan actually be a grandfather figure for the family.
Some breeds which descend (at least largely) from this family and should be categorised in this family include-
Rottweiler
Great dane
Fila brasileiro
Tosa
Dogue de bordeaux
Presa canario
Cimarron Uruguayo
Bully kutta
Neo mastiff
Cane corso
Boerboel
Bullmastiff
English mastiff
Broholmer
Alano espanol
Dogo argentino
Boxer
English bulldog
American bulldog
Gull terr
Apbt
Ebt
SBT
amstaff
etc...

the sylvan....hunting big game, used for predator control, etc, and I'm like "wait a second, this is no standard eastern european LGD, it's from a different culture entirely", what I see the role of an early, versatile, gripping dog.

Feel free to learn from it, or to stay stupid. Totally your choice.


my answer to him:

sunnyAK wrote:what can i learn from somebody like you, who sees dogs so hidebound? all the things you mention are nothing special. it is not a special work "Sebian Sylvans" did. i already told you one year ago that LGDs like the Spanish Mastiff for example have been used as large game hunters too, in turkey they have wolf-hunting LGDs in enough cases, the Kazakhstan CAO strain (they call their dogs Tobets) hunt large game like boars, drive cattle and guard livestock because they are LGDs who simply can do that. it is way easier for a LGD to hunt, if you want it to hunt, than for a "huntig dog" to guard livestock and defend it against wild predators. (the latter won´t work, or would you take a Bullarab for this work)

when i said all this stuff a year ago, you were saying it was crap and now wolf tells you "Serbian Sylvans" do this and that and you say "Wow god bless i found the father figure of all gripping dogs" :roll: OMG how stupid.


boris, dogs will often do different jobs and only because some people maybe hunted with "serbian sylvans", i guess the ones they hunted with simply had some hound blood, this doesn´t make them the grandfather figure of "catch dog or gripping dogs" like gun calls the dogs in his list!

cheers
Andreas
sunnyAK
 
Posts: 57
Joined: 7. December 2011, 17:04


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