Indian Mastiff

Indian Mastiff

Postby sunnyAK on 7. December 2011, 21:31

Indian Mastiff

Image

i have created the graphic above to show my views on the origin of the bully kutta. i have tried my best using paint.
for me the starting point of the BK is when the native indian sighthounds melted together with large LGDs from persia. (both of them you can see at the top of the pic.) the ancient large persian mastiffs were LGDs like the sarabi dog. (in phenotype they were pretty much like kangals, maybe even like the aksaray malaks sometimes). in general all LGD types in the middle east are similar dogs, namely ancient "primitive/original" mastiffs.
just look at the various human migrations and influence of civilizations on modern day pakistan. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan. mind you, all these lands have giant LGD type dogs i.e. kangals, sarabis, aksaray Malaks, CAO types....
however i would say the sighthound influence was big enough that the BK was more leaning towards a running mastiff, while the ancient LGD types (the original central asian mastiffs) added power and size. these running mastiffs were propably a type we could call the "prototype bully kutta".
with the british invasion in india later also british blood was added, mainly of butchers´ alaunts and this was when the modern bully kutta arose. these british dogs for sure added determination & gameness. i explained this further on my chart.
i would like to hear your thoughts and opinions too.

beside that here is an interesting video, what do you think about the facts and especially about conclusions made in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WV1hs7UM9s
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:44

A collection on opinions converning the Bully Kutta´s ancestry:

User1 wrote:As some of you may know, suliman and I don't agree on the origins of the bully kutta. To put it mildly :lol:
Suliman believes the bully kutta is a direct descendent of ancient fighting mastiffs from ancient civilisations in the indus valley region (or something along those lines, correct me if I'm wrong), while I believe they're clearly descendents of western big-game hunting dogs brought to the sub-continent by the british.

When I proposed seizer origins to suliman, he had a few rather weak arguments against that idea. I intend to point out the mistakes in his arguments, and also illustrate how blatantly similar western hunting mastiffs were to bully kuttas in appearance around the time that the british went to india.
Using images borrowed from the book "the mastiffs- the big game hunters", which suliman has probably seen, but conveniently ignored.

First what does the book say about seizers-
Image

Yes, that makes sense, "seizers" being comprised of the european "gripping" dogs, mastiffs and bullbreeds, and the name "seizer" being a reference for their tendency to "seize" steadfast onto the quarry.
Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.

Here is a picture showing two hunting dogs typically used by the british in india, one of the rough coated sighthound variety, and the other of the shortcoated seizer variety.
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Gee, is it just me or does that seizer look a fuckload like a bully kutta? I mean I couldn't draw a BK that accurately, and I consider myself an artist.

Some other artworks depicting seizers-
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Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude?" (I'm paraphrasing), but let's look at what passed for a bloodhound in the 1800s?
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Look familiar? Like, I don't know, maybe EXACTLY like BKs?
"Bloodhounds" were often mastiff/bull crosses, with a splash of st hubert hound for scenting ability.

While we're at it, let's take a look at the british/european hunting mastiffs from around that time-
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Shit even the bulldogs looked like stocky BKs-
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Suliman says I talk too much so maybe I should just leave it there and let the pictures speak for themselves. Blatant BK looking dogs were taken by the british to india for hunting big game (specifically subdueing and fighting the quarry, hence seizers), they kicked around in the dirt for a while fighting stuff and then around 2001 some idiot on the internet started calling them Bully Kuttas. That's the history of the BK.


http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:49

User1 wrote:
User2 wrote:
User3 wrote:There are plenty of pictures of Euro typ mastiffs that look identical to BK yet no pics or drawings from the Indo/paki region from this time, why?


Not so artistic folks ?

Haha, well the thing is they were pretty artistic back 7000-5000 years ago when the area did actually have large dogs. After that I guess they just had an artist's mental block? Got stage fright?

Also why didn't the british notice big mastiff dogs when they got there? I've read a few different accounts by the british commenting on the local dogs and they often seem to suggest the biggest dog that was there was the tazi, which is known to have been imported from the middle east anyway earlier by an indian king, and was at best a skinnier version of the greyhound.
There's just no evidence I've seen of there being big mastiff dogs in that area in the last many thousands of years.

It's known that in the 1300s to the 1500s european mastiffs were traded along the silk routes to kings and barons in mongolia and japan for hunting and fighting purposes, which means they actually had to go transport these european mastiffs through india to get them to their destination. Didn't they stop along the way and say "wtf, there's one just there, we went all that way for nothing".
I even feel like I've heard about indian royalty importing european hunting mastiffs as well around the same time, but I'll have to check on that.

The dogs were short lived in japan and china it seems, probably lived and died with the emperors and kings or whatever that imported them.
Later japan had to get mastiffs and bullbreeds yet again from britain to create the tosa.
Everywhere you go you know the people obtained their gripping mastiff and bullbreed types from western europe- eastern europe, russia, asia, south america, north america, australia, south africa are all known to have gotten gripping dogs from western europe because that's where they came from, then only in pakistan it's like "oh no, we've had this secret stash the whole time".

That makes me like "really? What do you do with these gripping mastiffs, how did they develop, what did you need them for? Have you worked cattle with them, swine?"
"aahh, they sometimes fight each other on the dusty street"
*a suspicious look*
"it gets pretty hot, but they still fight ...anyway ... *looks at feet ashamed*"
"these aren't your dogs at all are they? you don't even know how to use them"
"*sheepish look*"


http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 02:57

OK, let´s keep the real user names within the quotes this time, they are from sunnyak.forenworld.at/index.php , the long-lasting partner-board to this encylcopedia anyway.

suliman wrote:
Gun wrote:The truth is suliman acts like a dick to me, and I act like a bit of a dick back, but I definitely hold back more than I say and try to keep it focussed on the dogs, unlike him.


Hello, did you miss me? Too bad I am back to ruin your Estrogen High, thinking you’ve won:lol:

I am so heartbroken, I was having very big hopes for my worst fears!

First of all my heartiest congratulations goes to GUN, for the first time in History coming up with some pictures. A Big Hurray to the Shit quality uploads of pics taken from a Cellphone, dude if you don't have a scanner or don't even have acces to one, want me to donate you a nice Scanner? at least you could Scan the pictures properly and put on better quality pics! rather than using a Cellphone Cam which also seem's shit quality by the way :D

Well well looks like you like dicks too much, what do they say about you'r kind. They’re all bloody pufters! You lead the pack marching in Sydney at the annual parade -Mardi Gras festival.

I guess you have a very short lived memory. let me remind you

Suliman wrote: I publically and solemnly would like to offer apologies if knowingly or unknowingly you felt even the slightest of rudeness towards you, your country or breeds! I’d Expect the same level of Respect in Return!!!

I’d like be the first to take the honors of bringing forth a Friendship Hand to you and let’s enjoy this great opportunity to learn from each other about the Breeds of their Nation.


After all the Respect rituals, you took so anally me asking on Sunny's statement that my questions were still unanswered. Does not bother me at all we know you love dicks especially up the a**

Gun wrote: You should be relieved I dropped the seizer issue, because your attempts to squirm out of that one were weak as hell.

You wanna talk about seizers? Let's talk about seizers.
I'll start a thread on the obvious seizer/bully kutta connection today.

Maids, seizers/bully kuttas... guess colonialism wasn't all bad?




Gun wrote:Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka, and he describes them as greyhound x bloodhound. This isn't true. Samuel white baker hunted with all sorts of dogs, foxhound crosses and deerhound crosses and seizers, which he mentions seizers as being mastiff and bull crosses, as does the above account from INDIA.


Not only you'r ass is arrogant but you also posses the quality of Lying and that too right on the face.

Where did Samuel White Baker came into Discussion from, dropping out of the Sky? I guess Hypocrisy limits your short memory

Gun wrote: There was also the seizer. What do you make of it? A big game hunting(and part time security) bandog used extensively in india and what was then ceylon by the british. It's written about in big game hunting accounts of the time,most notably by Sir Samuel White Baker. A cross between mastiffs, bullterriers and german and english hounds (I would guess everything from foxhounds, bloodhounds, boarhounds aka danes, and sighthounds).


Perphaps you'r ego was hurt bad when I slapped back the Statements from Samuel White Baker. You call my arguments weak, We are not talking about your erection here :lol:

I have said it before and unlike you I stand for what I say. Samuel White Baker Created the Seizer, just like Swinford Created the Bandog, like Katrina Hartwell creates Bandogs.

Gun wrote:Suliman claims seizers were invented by Samuel white baker, who only hunted in sri lanka


Honestly you call yourself a hunter, shame on you!! Did Samuel White Baker came into your dream and told you he only hunted in Srilanka??

He has been to India many times in 1885 and 1887-1889 pursuing tigers and blackbuck. Or perphaps you presume that he was a lier and a hypocrite like your self! This makes me have real doubts on you. The Four ForeFathers of Big Game Hunting are William Cotton Oswell, Henry Astbury Leveson, Sir Samuel White Baker and Roualeyn George Gordon Cumming. Sir Samuel White Baker only one amongst them to be Knighted by the Queen. But who do you care to listen, you’re a Knight in your own right, being Knighted at Mardi Gras for the special skill of Dwindling your thang :lol:

You think just by putting up a write-up on Seizures from the Book is enough, what’s the link to the Bully Kutta Dah?

Let me up put up original Manuscript from Rifle and the Hound in Ceylon.

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Gun wrote:Suliman says "seizers are like bloodhounds or some shit, wtf dude


Are you that Dumb? Do you want me to slap your face now or you would like to do the honor’s yourself. Carefully read with open eyes above what Sir Samuel White Baker wrote. Like the Bandog was a gamekeeper’s mongrel specializing at Man Grabbing/Seizing. The Seizure was a mongrel specialized at seizing big game. A Neo/American Bulldog is called a Bandog and so is a Dogue De Bordeaux/Pit, since they are types not breeds.



About your pictures, I am 100% sure that you have Hyperopia! Go get your eyes checked.

LMAO the picture below is titled by GUN as BK Hunting. Perhaps the encircled Ceylon (Srilanka) escaped your notice, BK's in Srilanka haha. Also that the dogs have pointy muzzles, ears thrown back and folded, some lurcher type in the background. Just like your knowledge of Hunting History, your knowledge of dog anatomy is jack shit. Showing dogs of different type Short muzzles, Bloodhounds, then English Mastiffs, Bandogs, Bulldogs and everything is comparable to BK. This is what you call Desperate.

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About your Seizer picture, What’s the hype about it ain’t no special thing that existed have gone away. Showing Seizers of 27 and 28 inches who are 40 kg + range and comparing them to BK, you can’t be stupider than this.

Below is a comparison of the Seizer with the Australian Bandog. Similar weight and hight range, similar breeding both being mogrels and similar Anatomy.

If you see the Australian Bandog similar to Bully Kutta, well with Hyperopia Disability income won’t be a bad idea.

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Gun wrote: You're not getting it. NONE of the dogs in india are purebreeds. Not one.


Forget the Bully Kutta thingi None of the dog breeds in India is a Pure bred :lol:

Below are some bits from Sir Samuel White Baker’s Wild Beasts and their ways. Mr. Baker describes about a large breed kept by the Banjara’s. He is referring to the Banjara Mastiff. Why didn’t he mentions of the Banjara as a cross of Bullterrier to hound or anything similar or more over any blood being brought over from the West influencing the creation of the breed. The Banjara’s have Indian Mastiff/BK blood in its vein’s. The two dogs he got were mix bred with a local dog and the Banjara and described as excellent quality.

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Go get yourself educated before talking dogs, at least you’d know wtf your talking about. Samuel White Baker only hunted in Srilanka my ass and yeah please don’t waste our time by replying with your trademark So What!
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:02

User1 wrote:I was paraphrasing you saying samuel white baker only hunted in ceylon, you said something to that affect that he was the one who talked about seizers and never set foot in pakistan. I know full well the reality is seizers were prevalent across pakistan, india, bangladesh and sri lanka and indeed were still back over in europe as well. Similar dogs were also taken to africa.
I also know samuel white baker travelled the world hunting big game.
Maybe I misquoted you, I apologise, so we agree then that seizers were all over the place?

There's nothing to say these mongrels dogs aren't still kicking around in sri lanka and india, it's just that no deluded lunatic has declared them some ancient mythological breed yet. Conversely they may have died out in those countries, while finding continued employment in these dog fighting and bear baiting cultures of pakistan. Nothing perplexing about that.

Showing that some looked like scottish deerhounds and some were smaller than bully kuttas and etc is neither here nor there. They had varied mongrel hunting dogs just as you have today in australia. Some looked like BKs, and that bk type has been favoured with the fighting dogs in pakistan that descend from these european mongrel hunting dogs.

I named the pictures "Bullykuttashunting" and "obviousbullykutta" and etc to amuse myself at your expense, lol.
Glad you noticed it and got your little loin cloth in a twist. :lol:

Is that it btw?

Edit- oh and yeah the camera on my phone is shitty. I haven't dusted off my actual camera or charged it's battery for a long time so I just used my phone, figured it was clear enough to get the point.
Yep, good point about the camera???
And the gay mardi gras?
Grasping at straws much? Typical of a desperate beaten man.
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:09

suliman wrote:
WORKMAN wrote:How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?


Hello,

Well you just asked the question that I asked Gun in a different Way. See below the entire British empire.

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As you can clearly see the British Indian Empire included the Entire of Pakistan, India, Srilanka and Bangladesh. I have provided specific evidence in the other topic of Mastiff Type Dog presence in the Indus Valley of Pakistan. It has been found in Literature, Engraving, terracotta Figurines and excavations of remains of Mastiff type from these sites. Below is a Map of Pakistan marked with region where the Bully Kutta Still exits along the Indus River.

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If indeed the Western Mastiff did develop the Bully Kutta. Why don’t you have any Large short Hair Mastiff type dog from Bangladesh, Srilanka and most of India??? (Apart from Indian Punjab and some Neighboring States, During British time nearly all of the Big game and the Tiger country in British India was further west expanding up to areas bordering modern day Nepal and Bangladesh and in Srilanka. That’s where they had these seizer type dogs, Majority of the Big Game trophy Hunters never even stepped their foot on the modern day Pakistan then why don’t we find large Bully Kutta type dogs their???
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 03:48

the internet is full of stuff about BKs, including different claims about the size and weight of a true BK.
it can be read that true BKs are sometimes or even frequently 90kg and more than 90cm in size. other people say that these are made up stories and that huge BKs are not true bullies, but western Mastiff crosses, including German Mastiffs etc.
any opinions about it :?:

here indeed a huge Bully Kutta from pakistan.
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if we compare it to this two dogs, you can see it is very different in build. it looks like two different breeds.
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here another bully which is similar in type like the second one.
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in my opinion the difference between the first and the other two dogs, is more than just, two different types of BKs!


shah wrote:Well there is NO such thing as indian sindh or indian bully kutta i think this puneeth have on purpose misled u by not telling the truth behind these socalled indian bullys.

Upto this day i havent seen ONE single pure bk from india which was not imported from pakistan.

pic nr 1 is jogie whos bred and owned by MR KHAN QAYUM the most famous bk man in pakistan.

pic no 2 is a dog called michael who was imported to india from pakistan.

Micheal have mopped the floor whit any competition he met in india (mostly guldongs) at the age of 10 he still is undefeated champ and is regarded as a legend and best fighter of india.today many many dogs is offsprings of michael mostly crossed whit local bull terrs or pitbulls.

pic no 3 also have roots in pakistan but was imported to india. the guy holding him is the fraud who calls himself as the goodfAther of bullys.LOL :D LOL
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same dog is in pic no 3 only here whit his real owner.


i cud go on and on and show u many more dogs in india whos imported direct from pakistan but ill let it be for now.

here is little info rwitten by a indian guy about the sindh dog it will tell u where the purest and best preserved bullys is found today.
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8)


sunnyAK wrote:shah, your post makes no sense at all. in 1900, the name pakistan didn't even exist. the land was part of India, which was a collection of british provinces under the direct sovereignty of the british crown, along with small states ruled by indian princes under british hegemony. when india obtained its independence on 1947-08-15, the area hitherto known as india was divided into two countries along religious lines. if there should be some kind of "ancient unchanged Bully Kutta" -something i don´t believe in :arrow: i mentioned earlier:"It is highly unlikely that it is an ancient unchanged breed. that's just not my idea of dogs. we don't have "pure, ancient & unchanged dogs" existing in some kind of "parallel universe" for 1000 years or even more.", it was no pakistani breed at all, but a native breed of the indian subcontinent. again, i don´t believe that there are pure unchanged breeds up til now, but to say bully kuttas were a pure pakistani breed and indian had no pure BKs, when pakistan as independent country didn´t even exist is grotesque. it is just a national pride thing. :roll:
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby IamTitanium on 6. December 2012, 04:11

suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.

Lets talk the History first. There have been two school of thoughts about the History of Bk's. One part thinks that the Bk was developed during the British Rule in the Subcontinent, developed from crossing of English dogs like Great Dane and Mastiffs. The other people are content with the Idea that its very ancient breed and going further more to the theories that western Mastiff's were created by dogs taken from this region by Alexander.

To me both are extreme's! Geographically near to the Bk region there has been presence of Mastiff Blood since ancient times but Wolf Type LGD Blood of Tibetan's, Caucassian's and Sage Kooche's etc. With BK being the Only short hair Mastiff in the region.

There is no denying the fact that in ancient literature Large Dogs from the Indian Subcontinent can be found. For instance

1) "Animals grow biggest in india ,from india comes the dog that are larger than all others."( Naturalis Historia by Pliny the elder 77CE)

2) "The Indian dogs are very large and even attack lions"( Ctesias,400BC)
[please note the author is mentioning the bravery of dogs by mentioning they attack not to be misinterpreted to conclude that they Kill!

3) Aristotle writes in his Book History of animalia 350 BC "They say that the Indian dog is a cross between the tiger and the bitch, not the first cross, but a cross in the third generation; for they say that the first cross is a savage creature. They take the bitch to a lonely spot and tie her up: if the tiger be in an amorous mood he will pair with her; if not he will eat her up, and this casualty is of frequent occurrence"
[Please note here that Aristotle is stressing on They say meaning that a famous fable of his time, please don't misinterpret this to think he confirmed this]

4) We can find mention in Religious Scriptures like Ramayana approximately 900 years BC .
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Bharat the Brother of the God Rama was leaving for Ayodha which was an ancient city of India, which is now in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh and was given such dogs by his maternal uncle the Kekeya king. The Kekeyan kingdom was the Western kingdom which is quite close the modern day region of the BK.



suliman wrote:Ok now lets talk about the idea of the BK originating from the Western Mastiff stock, The BK is a Dry Mouth short coat Mastiff, unlike Majority of Western Mastiff that have a more dome type Skull and are heavy drooler's. Here is a list of dogs breed famous for drooling excessively.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/drool.htm

Dog's like the Great Dane, Mastiff, Neo, Dogue De Bordeux are very exotic even today
! Even to this day a common Village Breeder would not be able to find these Western dogs for Mating even he wants to and keep in mind 90% of the BK is kept in rural village areas of Pakistan. Our society has always been separated into casts, sects, Financial Statuses etc without any intermingleness amongst individuals of different groups. During the British Raj The Mastiffs, Danes etc were owned only by Royalty. Which the common man didn’t have any access to breed with.

However Let’s look at this more logically, The British ruled here for 90 years. If we take average age of a dog 9 years we would have 10 generations but realistically breeders can go into 10th gen in 12 to 20 years, breeding quickly at when dogs are 2 years Old.

So let’s just consider we are in the 20th generation of BK now from that time. This makes the transition period from one gen to another 4.5 yrs and 4 years is a prime age, peak time for breeding when breeders do breed here.

Now if we take a Bully go back up to 20 generations there would be 2097168 ancestors dogs in total (This is an estimated figure sometimes dogs do get repeated in the Pedigree, Majority of the breeding here is outcrossing. So for the calculation we are assuming all dogs were different). 1048576 males and 1048576 females. Now in order for the genes to considered for the English Blood the minimum amount should be 10% i.e at least 10% of the ancestors should be English dogs. 10% of the total 2097168 dogs would be 209716.8 dogs, Now again we also need to take into consideration the fact that every time we don’t need to cross a new dog, so some dogs can be bred 3 to 4 times in ancestry. So let’s say all the English dogs were bred four times in the ancestry so we divide 209716.8 with 4 = 52429.2 meaning a population of Fifty two thousand four hundred and twenty nine English Dogs in a span of 90 years.

The Kennel Club of Pakistan started registry in 1947, as soon as it got its affiliation with the Kennel Club (England). I got the Data for all the registered Western Mastiff type dogs from the Kennel Club of Pakistan dating from 1947 till Now. I was told in a letter from the President of the Kennel Club of Pakistan Mr.K.M Roy that not many people have these breeds and following is the total number of dogs
registered.

1. English Mastiff .............42
2. Neopolitan Mastiff ........31
3. French Mastiff..............12
4. Great Dane .................39

Now further lets look at it from a breeders perspective, let’s say the person gets hold of an English dog and breeds him with a local female. The first generation is 50/50 percent, the second would be 75% local, 25% English . By the time of the third generation the English Dog would be on the verge of being bred out of the line. If some percent of English Dogs were added with this type of breeding by the 20th gen there would not be any traces of them. Even with good pit lines breeders find them bred out and have to outcross a different line at times. See below this type of breeding
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ow the BK to be developed from the English dogs, English dogs have to be introduced in several gens according to systematic breeding, which I find impossible to believe that locals either had the resources or the brains to have this carried out. Now one can argument instead of the locals the English did it, Ok then why there is no mention of it any where? English are pride taking people if they do something they take credit for it, where is any journal, any record, any statement, any writings that supports this. People say show us any written document in the last 2010 years about the breed, then we believe. I say show me anything authentic document from the time proving systematic breeding. So where did this English dogs theory come from and how can it be proved! Below is a plan of this type of systematic breeding.
Image


suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time.


WORKMAN wrote:ah those were the days when shah could make up bullshit romantic stories and outright lies to "stupid westerners" the name he so bestowingly called them. Then as more info started to come about and the things shah would rather have left in dark came to light as they always do shah's credibility and his username drifted into obscurity. With the exception of him attempting to send people computer viruses (cyber terrorism) he seemed to disappear. Until now after oozing from underneath his rock back into the public eye. What an honor to have such an honest upright member here.
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby the celt on 25. December 2012, 00:08

bully kutta is a mixed breed, before that in india the dogs where of sighthound build, if we all believe the great shah, then why where these dogs not brought back by europeans, also he puts down the indian dogs saying pakistan dogs are better, but lets remember pakistan only was born in late 1940s
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby sunnyAK on 25. December 2012, 18:02

the celt wrote:bully kutta is a mixed breed, before that in india the dogs where of sighthound build, if we all believe the great shah, then why where these dogs not brought back by europeans, also he puts down the indian dogs saying pakistan dogs are better, but lets remember pakistan only was born in late 1940s


yeah, that was what i answered him already. for me the BK is an "alaunt veantre", just like the German Mastiff and with that said a mix of sighthounds and mastiff/bulldog types. the bulldog types were definitely brought from britain and were melted in to one type of dog they now call Bully Kutta.

just take a look at the type of dogs that were the foundation for the German Mastiff aka Great Dane:
Image
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby the celt on 30. December 2012, 01:56

IamTitanium wrote:
suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.

Lets talk the History first. There have been two school of thoughts about the History of Bk's. One part thinks that the Bk was developed during the British Rule in the Subcontinent, developed from crossing of English dogs like Great Dane and Mastiffs. The other people are content with the Idea that its very ancient breed and going further more to the theories that western Mastiff's were created by dogs taken from this region by Alexander.

To me both are extreme's! Geographically near to the Bk region there has been presence of Mastiff Blood since ancient times but Wolf Type LGD Blood of Tibetan's, Caucassian's and Sage Kooche's etc. With BK being the Only short hair Mastiff in the region.

There is no denying the fact that in ancient literature Large Dogs from the Indian Subcontinent can be found. For instance

1) "Animals grow biggest in india ,from india comes the dog that are larger than all others."( Naturalis Historia by Pliny the elder 77CE) african elephant lion rhino, hyenaare bigger

2) "The Indian dogs are very large and even attack lions"( Ctesias,400BC)
[please note the author is mentioning the bravery of dogs by mentioning they attack not to be misinterpreted to conclude that they Kill!

3) Aristotle writes in his Book History of animalia 350 BC "They say that the Indian dog is a cross between the tiger and the bitch, not the first cross, but a cross in the third generation; for they say that the first cross is a savage creature. They take the bitch to a lonely spot and tie her up: if the tiger be in an amorous mood he will pair with her; if not he will eat her up, and this casualty is of frequent occurrence"
[Please note here that Aristotle is stressing on They say meaning that a famous fable of his time, please don't misinterpret this to think he confirmed this]

4) We can find mention in Religious Scriptures like Ramayana approximately 900 years BC .
Image
Bharat the Brother of the God Rama was leaving for Ayodha which was an ancient city of India, which is now in the Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh and was given such dogs by his maternal uncle the Kekeya king. The Kekeyan kingdom was the Western kingdom which is quite close the modern day region of the BK.



suliman wrote:Ok now lets talk about the idea of the BK originating from the Western Mastiff stock, The BK is a Dry Mouth short coat Mastiff, unlike Majority of Western Mastiff that have a more dome type Skull and are heavy drooler's. Here is a list of dogs breed famous for drooling excessively.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/drool.htm

Dog's like the Great Dane, Mastiff, Neo, Dogue De Bordeux are very exotic even today
! Even to this day a common Village Breeder would not be able to find these Western dogs for Mating even he wants to and keep in mind 90% of the BK is kept in rural village areas of Pakistan. Our society has always been separated into casts, sects, Financial Statuses etc without any intermingleness amongst individuals of different groups. During the British Raj The Mastiffs, Danes etc were owned only by Royalty. Which the common man didn’t have any access to breed with.

However Let’s look at this more logically, The British ruled here for 90 years. If we take average age of a dog 9 years we would have 10 generations but realistically breeders can go into 10th gen in 12 to 20 years, breeding quickly at when dogs are 2 years Old.

So let’s just consider we are in the 20th generation of BK now from that time. This makes the transition period from one gen to another 4.5 yrs and 4 years is a prime age, peak time for breeding when breeders do breed here.

Now if we take a Bully go back up to 20 generations there would be 2097168 ancestors dogs in total (This is an estimated figure sometimes dogs do get repeated in the Pedigree, Majority of the breeding here is outcrossing. So for the calculation we are assuming all dogs were different). 1048576 males and 1048576 females. Now in order for the genes to considered for the English Blood the minimum amount should be 10% i.e at least 10% of the ancestors should be English dogs. 10% of the total 2097168 dogs would be 209716.8 dogs, Now again we also need to take into consideration the fact that every time we don’t need to cross a new dog, so some dogs can be bred 3 to 4 times in ancestry. So let’s say all the English dogs were bred four times in the ancestry so we divide 209716.8 with 4 = 52429.2 meaning a population of Fifty two thousand four hundred and twenty nine English Dogs in a span of 90 years.

The Kennel Club of Pakistan started registry in 1947, as soon as it got its affiliation with the Kennel Club (England). I got the Data for all the registered Western Mastiff type dogs from the Kennel Club of Pakistan dating from 1947 till Now. I was told in a letter from the President of the Kennel Club of Pakistan Mr.K.M Roy that not many people have these breeds and following is the total number of dogs
registered.

1. English Mastiff .............42
2. Neopolitan Mastiff ........31
3. French Mastiff..............12
4. Great Dane .................39

Now further lets look at it from a breeders perspective, let’s say the person gets hold of an English dog and breeds him with a local female. The first generation is 50/50 percent, the second would be 75% local, 25% English . By the time of the third generation the English Dog would be on the verge of being bred out of the line. If some percent of English Dogs were added with this type of breeding by the 20th gen there would not be any traces of them. Even with good pit lines breeders find them bred out and have to outcross a different line at times. See below this type of breeding
Image
ow the BK to be developed from the English dogs, English dogs have to be introduced in several gens according to systematic breeding, which I find impossible to believe that locals either had the resources or the brains to have this carried out. Now one can argument instead of the locals the English did it, Ok then why there is no mention of it any where? English are pride taking people if they do something they take credit for it, where is any journal, any record, any statement, any writings that supports this. People say show us any written document in the last 2010 years about the breed, then we believe. I say show me anything authentic document from the time proving systematic breeding. So where did this English dogs theory come from and how can it be proved! Below is a plan of this type of systematic breeding.
Image


suliman wrote:Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time.


WORKMAN wrote:ah those were the days when shah could make up bullshit romantic stories and outright lies to "stupid westerners" the name he so bestowingly called them. Then as more info started to come about and the things shah would rather have left in dark came to light as they always do shah's credibility and his username drifted into obscurity. With the exception of him attempting to send people computer viruses (cyber terrorism) he seemed to disappear. Until now after oozing from underneath his rock back into the public eye. What an honor to have such an honest upright member here.
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby the celt on 30. December 2012, 02:01

suliman seems forget elephants lions rhino hyena are bigger in africa, also where does the british say the native dog is better, or they not ship them home
the celt
 
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby sunnyAK on 3. January 2013, 01:52

the celt wrote:suliman seems forget elephants lions rhino hyena are bigger in africa, also where does the british say the native dog is better, or they not ship them home


i also find that nothing of this proves anything. DNA tests could prove the question people are discussing for years, so all the very long writing would not be needed.
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Re: Indian Mastiff

Postby sunnyAK on 30. March 2013, 02:12

suliman wrote:
WORKMAN wrote:How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?


Hello,

Well you just asked the question that I asked Gun in a different Way. See below the entire British empire.

Image

As you can clearly see the British Indian Empire included the Entire of Pakistan, India, Srilanka and Bangladesh. I have provided specific evidence in the other topic of Mastiff Type Dog presence in the Indus Valley of Pakistan. It has been found in Literature, Engraving, terracotta Figurines and excavations of remains of Mastiff type from these sites. Below is a Map of Pakistan marked with region where the Bully Kutta Still exits along the Indus River.

Image

If indeed the Western Mastiff did develop the Bully Kutta. Why don’t you have any Large short Hair Mastiff type dog from Bangladesh, Srilanka and most of India??? (Apart from Indian Punjab and some Neighboring States, During British time nearly all of the Big game and the Tiger country in British India was further west expanding up to areas bordering modern day Nepal and Bangladesh and in Srilanka. That’s where they had these seizer type dogs, Majority of the Big Game trophy Hunters never even stepped their foot on the modern day Pakistan then why don’t we find large Bully Kutta type dogs their???


well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion the map i know attach is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.

i also still wonder why enough pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense! dogs don´t fall from the sky somewhere without any foreign blood. :P
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